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 Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation

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pohl4711
texium
Brendan
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Brendan




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PostSubject: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptyTue Apr 04, 2023 7:27 pm

By now everyone has probably tried ChatGPT.

This thing can seemingly talk as a human would on any topic.

Colloquially, academically, formally...whatever you ask.

Has anyone thought of doing something similar, but feeding it a TOOOON of chess data.

Make the chess engine something strong, but human-like as hell.

And the language model *also* has a lot of chess knowledge to explain, as ChatGPT does, but with chess context.


The result (in my mind), would be something where you can feed it the PGN from one of your games, and instead of the typical computerish "better is Rc1 0.54" annotation, the program writes like a real human GM annotator:

"Black's trade has weakened his light-squares and so now we see white begin to tighten his grip with a knight transfer to the queenside. Keep an eye out for 37. Nc5! and the subsequent rook invasion"


I feel like something like this would be easy, but for us actual chess players, it'd be game-changing.

Also a huuuuuuuge business opportunity imo.

Thoughts?
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texium




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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptyTue Apr 04, 2023 8:21 pm

It actually has existed for a while. It's just not very good. https://chrisbutner.github.io/ChessCoach/index.html
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Brendan




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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptyTue Apr 04, 2023 8:40 pm

texium wrote:
It actually has existed for a while. It's just not very good. https://chrisbutner.github.io/ChessCoach/index.html

No mate.

This type of annotation, which you linked, has been around since Chessmaster 3000.

Comments which insult the intelligence of players "white is a piece up, but black is lost" is absolutely not what I am talking about.

This is garbage analysis that will hurt more than help aspiring players.

Detail is lacking. Linguistic insight into positions is lacking (the engine plays like God, but explains like a Chessmaster 3000).

The entire concept of "natural language annotation" is obsolete until someone applies a chatGPT-like net to explaining chess positions in annotations.

Here's an example to pass the "Chess analysis, Turing test".

Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation Exampl10

When a program can annotate on *this* human level, with *instructive* analysis, based measurably on its 3000+ Elo, it will be a success.

I believe with a Chat GPT-like language model, trained on chess data, plugged INTO an analysis engine, we could definitely reach such a great level of analysis.

In fact, such a program (3400 Elo in strength) with the ability to write like a human being, very personalised, detailed analysis - could write annotations even Carlsen could learn from.

It is coming. The question is, who will get first mover advantage in the market?
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texium




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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptyTue Apr 04, 2023 9:07 pm

That's exactly what this does. In his explanation he used the same framework as GPT, "The network uses the transformer architecture (Vaswani et al., 2017), explained by Alammar (2018) and most recently powering the GPT-2 (Radford et al., 2019) and GPT-3 (Brown et al., 2020) systems. "
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Brendan




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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptyTue Apr 04, 2023 9:12 pm

texium wrote:
That's exactly what this does. In his explanation he used the same framework as GPT, "The network uses the transformer architecture (Vaswani et al., 2017), explained by Alammar (2018) and most recently powering the GPT-2 (Radford et al., 2019) and GPT-3 (Brown et al., 2020) systems. "

Okay. Very cool, if so.

Do you have a sample of its annotations?

Given that chatGPT is so cutting-edge, I'm curious how a chess-oriented one works, if already around for so long.

Will be surprised, but happy if such a thing exists.
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pohl4711

pohl4711


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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptyTue Apr 11, 2023 12:44 pm

Try this, perhaps:

https://decodechess.com/

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Brendan




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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptyWed Apr 12, 2023 5:16 am

pohl4711 wrote:
Try this, perhaps:

https://decodechess.com/


Not bad for lower-rated players (website says aimed at sub 2000 Elo), but for me "1.Bc5 is better because it attacks a piece" is not enough.

AI is at the level of where if it had enough chess knowledge, it could explain in great detail why a move is good.

Something like "Usually black plays 17...Rac8!? in these types of positions since control of the c-file will be an important factor after the exchange of c-pawns. There are parallels in the Caro Kann which was also a Karpov favorite"

Something this sophisticated doesn't exist yet, yet the technology is there for it.
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texium




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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptyThu Apr 13, 2023 7:48 am

Brendan wrote:
pohl4711 wrote:
Try this, perhaps:

https://decodechess.com/


Not bad for lower-rated players (website says aimed at sub 2000 Elo), but for me "1.Bc5 is better because it attacks a piece" is not enough.

AI is at the level of where if it had enough chess knowledge, it could explain in great detail why a move is good.

Something like "Usually black plays 17...Rac8!? in these types of positions since control of the c-file will be an important factor after the exchange of c-pawns. There are parallels in the Caro Kann which was also a Karpov favorite"

Something this sophisticated doesn't exist yet, yet the technology is there for it.
closest is probably chessbase tactical analysis, and that isn't even AI, just algorithm that takes in move analysis from engine and has a short snippet
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Brendan




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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptyThu Apr 13, 2023 8:27 am

texium wrote:
Brendan wrote:
pohl4711 wrote:
Try this, perhaps:

https://decodechess.com/


Not bad for lower-rated players (website says aimed at sub 2000 Elo), but for me "1.Bc5 is better because it attacks a piece" is not enough.

AI is at the level of where if it had enough chess knowledge, it could explain in great detail why a move is good.

Something like "Usually black plays 17...Rac8!? in these types of positions since control of the c-file will be an important factor after the exchange of c-pawns. There are parallels in the Caro Kann which was also a Karpov favorite"

Something this sophisticated doesn't exist yet, yet the technology is there for it.
closest is probably chessbase tactical analysis, and that isn't even AI, just algorithm that takes in move analysis from engine and has a short snippet

Correct. I use Tactical Analysis on ChessBase a lot but am looking for more. Hence my post.

From a commercial standpoint, whoever does what I have suggested (and does it well, as in, releases it with a nice software or Web2 app) will make a lot of money.

They'll likely be bought out by ChessBase or Magnus group (owner of chess24,ichess, chess.com, Chessable and more companies now).
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Chris Whittington




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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptyThu Apr 13, 2023 9:29 am

Brendan wrote:
texium wrote:
Brendan wrote:
pohl4711 wrote:
Try this, perhaps:

https://decodechess.com/


Not bad for lower-rated players (website says aimed at sub 2000 Elo), but for me "1.Bc5 is better because it attacks a piece" is not enough.

AI is at the level of where if it had enough chess knowledge, it could explain in great detail why a move is good.

Something like "Usually black plays 17...Rac8!? in these types of positions since control of the c-file will be an important factor after the exchange of c-pawns. There are parallels in the Caro Kann which was also a Karpov favorite"

Something this sophisticated doesn't exist yet, yet the technology is there for it.
closest is probably chessbase tactical analysis, and that isn't even AI, just algorithm that takes in move analysis from engine and has a short snippet

Correct. I use Tactical Analysis on ChessBase a lot but am looking for more. Hence my post.

From a commercial standpoint, whoever does what I have suggested (and does it well, as in, releases it with a nice software or Web2 app) will make a lot of money.

They'll likely be bought out by ChessBase or Magnus group (owner of chess24,ichess, chess.com, Chessable and more companies now).

Gpt obvs the way to do that. But, gpt is huge, on the cloud and costs.
Some people have hacked gpt (llama is one) and trained a smaller model using normal PC by training on GPT output itself (I think that’s how it’s done). So, a small model chess blurbed could maybe be done using that method).
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Dann Corbit




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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptyThu Apr 13, 2023 12:36 pm

There was a version of Chessmaster that would explain in human terms why a move was good or bad.  Probably the most important innovation of all time in computer chess.  But it has been abandoned and pursued by nobody.

If a chess engine can explain why a move is good or bad we can learn.  If it emits a move without explanation, we learn nothing. Or next to nothing.
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Brendan




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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptyThu Apr 13, 2023 1:21 pm

Chris Whittington wrote:
Brendan wrote:
texium wrote:
Brendan wrote:
pohl4711 wrote:
Try this, perhaps:

https://decodechess.com/


Not bad for lower-rated players (website says aimed at sub 2000 Elo), but for me "1.Bc5 is better because it attacks a piece" is not enough.

AI is at the level of where if it had enough chess knowledge, it could explain in great detail why a move is good.

Something like "Usually black plays 17...Rac8!? in these types of positions since control of the c-file will be an important factor after the exchange of c-pawns. There are parallels in the Caro Kann which was also a Karpov favorite"

Something this sophisticated doesn't exist yet, yet the technology is there for it.
closest is probably chessbase tactical analysis, and that isn't even AI, just algorithm that takes in move analysis from engine and has a short snippet

Correct. I use Tactical Analysis on ChessBase a lot but am looking for more. Hence my post.

From a commercial standpoint, whoever does what I have suggested (and does it well, as in, releases it with a nice software or Web2 app) will make a lot of money.

They'll likely be bought out by ChessBase or Magnus group (owner of chess24,ichess, chess.com, Chessable and more companies now).

Gpt obvs the way to do that. But, gpt is huge, on the cloud and costs.
Some people have hacked gpt (llama is one) and trained a smaller model using normal PC by training on GPT output itself (I think that’s how it’s done). So, a small model chess blurbed could maybe be done using that method).

Yep I read today that GPT runs on Microsoft's Azure and costs about 3 million a day (or week?) to run.

Not cheap.

But I wonder what could be done with a scaled-down, chess-focused version that runs a strong chess engine in the background parallel for analysis?!

Would be amazing imo.

Could be a game-changer for say 1900-2300 players to get to the next level.
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Brendan




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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptyThu Apr 13, 2023 1:24 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:
There was a version of Chessmaster that would explain in human terms why a move was good or bad.  Probably the most important innovation of all time in computer chess.  But it has been abandoned and pursued by nobody.

If a chess engine can explain why a move is good or bad we can learn.  If it emits a move without explanation, we learn nothing. Or next to nothing.

Yep. ChessMaster 3000 greatly impressed me as a kid with these features.

Was WAY ahead of its time.

The language however, was not detailed or advanced enough for my goals.

Would be awesome if one could flick a switch/lever that makes the analysis suitable for U1300/U1600/U2000/U2300/GM, and talk on these guy's level

Really would be a game-changer, and as I said, it seems the tech is there for it. bounce
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TheSelfImprover

TheSelfImprover


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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptySun Apr 16, 2023 8:22 pm

Gotham's Stockfish v ChatGPT game was fun (the explanation of the moves came from Gotham, though - not the chat bot):


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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation   Idea for next-level chess analysis and annotation EmptySun Apr 16, 2023 8:47 pm

Hilarious, even if it's a fake.

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