Chess System Tal 2 released

Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA

Damir Desevac wrote:: Who cares about knodes, important is the playing style.. In case you have not noticed CST2 is using 138 MB nnue.. That would explain the lower nodes on your machine..

Hey Mr. Snark, I only care about if CST2 is running correctly in testing.

What I noticed is not 138 MB nnue.

Chess System Tal 2 released - Page 2 File_s10

Posts : 1254 Join date : 2020-11-17 Location : France

mwyoung wrote:: Is this normal for CST2 to only be getting 3.2 million nodes per second average at 16CPU cores?

This is all I am getting at 16CPU on my Threadripper with CST2 after 16 games played.

My fast AMD gives about 2M nps on one core

Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA

Chris Whittington wrote:

mwyoung wrote:: Is this normal for CST2 to only be getting 3.2 million nodes per second average at 16CPU cores?

This is all I am getting at 16CPU on my Threadripper with CST2 after 16 games played.

My fast AMD gives about 2M nps on one core

Do we have a issue?

And I do not see a 138mb NNUE file photo above.

Posts : 1254 Join date : 2020-11-17 Location : France

mwyoung wrote:

Chris Whittington wrote:

mwyoung wrote:: Is this normal for CST2 to only be getting 3.2 million nodes per second average at 16CPU cores?

This is all I am getting at 16CPU on my Threadripper with CST2 after 16 games played.

My fast AMD gives about 2M nps on one core

Do we have a issue?

And I do not see a 138mb NNUE file photo above.

Nor do I.

Might be an issue, did you set yourself in power user mode to be using all cores?

Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA

Chris Whittington wrote:

mwyoung wrote:

Chris Whittington wrote:

mwyoung wrote:: Is this normal for CST2 to only be getting 3.2 million nodes per second average at 16CPU cores?

This is all I am getting at 16CPU on my Threadripper with CST2 after 16 games played.

My fast AMD gives about 2M nps on one core

Do we have a issue?

And I do not see a 138mb NNUE file photo above.

Nor do I.

Might be an issue, did you set yourself in power user mode to be using all cores?

Everything is normal, and all the other chess engines in the test are working correctly.

All chess engines below are using 16 CPU, except Stockfish 15.1 set at 1 CPU.

Tech data for the test.

Code:: Tech:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tech (average nodes, depths, time/m per move, others per game), counted for computing moves only, ignored moves with zero nodes:
  # name nodes/m NPS depth/m time/m moves time
  1. Stockfish 16 62353K 13649754 50.0 4.6 58.6 267.8
  2. Stockfish 14.1 81248K 16391702 50.2 5.0 52.1 258.2
  3. Stockfish 13 90737K 20969448 44.8 4.3 60.6 262.2
  4. Stockfish 15.1 4527K 957237 36.9 4.7 56.1 265.2
  5. Stockfish 12 98725K 18850102 43.9 5.2 40.7 213.0
  6. Chess-System-Tal-2.00 13813K 3216074 25.4 4.3 63.6 273.4
  7. Stockfish 11 64 POPCNT 104780K 24763080 38.2 4.2 69.3 293.2
   all --- 61389K 13809587 44.7 4.6 58.6 266.6

Settings

Code:: {
"app" :
{
"arguments" : [],
"author" : "id author Chris Whittington (C) 2003-2023",
"color" : 4293957279,
"command" : "C:/Users/Corsair/Desktop/Chess engines for Banksia/Chess System Tal 2/Chess-System-Tal-2.00-v21-E1019-Elo.opt-avx2.exe",
"elo" : 0,
"gpu" : false,
"idName" : "Chess-System-Tal-2.00",
"initStrings" : [],
"name" : "Chess-System-Tal-2.00",
"protocol" : "uci",
"working folder" : "C:\\Users\\Corsair\\Desktop\\Chess engines for Banksia\\Chess System Tal 2"
},
"comment" : "",
"options" :
[
{
"default" : 256,
"max" : 131072,
"min" : 16,
"name" : "Hash",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 4096
},
{
"default" : 1,
"max" : 64,
"min" : 1,
"name" : "Threads",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 16
},
{
"default" : 202,
"max" : 256,
"min" : 1,
"name" : "Evalcorrect",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 202
},
{
"default" : false,
"name" : "Ponder",
"type" : "check",
"value" : false
},
{
"default" : true,
"name" : "Rep2_Draw_Trolling",
"type" : "check",
"value" : true
},
{
"default" : 7,
"max" : 25,
"min" : 1,
"name" : "TC_Move_Overhead",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 7
},
{
"default" : 100,
"max" : 200,
"min" : 50,
"name" : "TC_Aggression",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 100
},
{
"default" : "book.bin",
"name" : "Bookfile",
"type" : "string",
"value" : "book.bin"
},
{
"default" : 0,
"max" : 200,
"min" : 0,
"name" : "Bookdepth",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 0
},
{
"default" : 0,
"max" : 100,
"min" : 0,
"name" : "Bookrandom",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 0
}
]
}

Posts : 222 Join date : 2021-08-28

on the photo is of course not Chess System Tal 2.00.

Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA

Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA

Dio wrote:: on the photo is of course not Chess System Tal 2.00.

My bad.

But the issue remains. If others are getting 2 Mnps with one CPU core.

"My fast AMD gives about 2M nps on one core" - C.W.

Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA

I will just setup my other computer with CST2 with faster cores. As see how CST2 scales on a other computer. This will tell us if this is a 2950x issue, or a CST2 issues running on 16 CPU.

Posts : 1254 Join date : 2020-11-17 Location : France

mwyoung wrote:: I will just setup my other computer with CST2 with faster cores. As see how CST2 scales on a other computer. This will tell us if this is a 2950x issue, or a CST2 issues running on 16 CPU.

if you didn't set yourself as a power user, threads will be limited to cores / 2

Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA

Chris Whittington wrote:

mwyoung wrote:: I will just setup my other computer with CST2 with faster cores. As see how CST2 scales on a other computer. This will tell us if this is a 2950x issue, or a CST2 issues running on 16 CPU.

if you didn't set yourself as a power user, threads will be limited to cores / 2

Is this a CST2 option, As my computer is using all cores with CST2. Question

Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA

This is a issue with CST2. It has a threading issue as you increase the threads.

On my other computer I am getting more NPS and CPU usage at 4CPU, then 8CPU.

And 4 CPU is much faster then my 2950x at 16 CPU.

Subject: Re: Chess System Tal 2 released Sat Jul 01, 2023 5:57 pm

Peter Berger wrote:

TigreNegro wrote:: Done this. And book is not used by the engine. Do you read my polyglot.ini?

I feel you, TigreNegro.

Sometimes it is kind of hard to deal with people on the internet.
I can explain my own philosophy: people provide amazing free products on the internet, in this case strong chess engines. So I feel obliged to report any bugs I witness, as you did. To my experience it makes sense to make them reports as clear and succinct as possible (you did a good job with this IMHO). This doesn’t mean the developer is supposed to fix them though – his or her decision. Maybe they have more serious things to work on right now, maybe they just don’t feel like fixing, or they never intended the feature – who knows?
If you do this in public, you also get replies by people who are willing to help, as they are nice guys. So they post random pieces of documentation. ( Usually you also get some flames and off-topic comments

). In case you are actually capable of reading documentation for yourself, you can easily get a little pissed off for not being given enough credit, but why? This guy who posts documentation ( and the like three guys who give this message a like) probably just mean well.
Polyglot book support in Chess System Tal is definitely kind of broken right now, in case it is supposed to be provided – I agree, when it is about this.

Sorry! I use in my tests almost exclusively minimalistic GUI books (mainly SuperGM_4mvs.abk). I was convinced that it was about an omission of reading the readme file (Krzysztof G. style in CCC).

Subject: Re: Chess System Tal 2 released Sat Jul 01, 2023 6:48 pm

Code:: Motor Punkte Sh Re CS Dr Lc Cr St Et Dr Wa CS De Ko Ko Ch Bo S-B
01: ShashChess31-x86-64-avx2 [t8, Petrosian] 19,5/30 ·· == == 0= == 11 == == 1= 11 1= =1 == =1 1= 1= 277,75
02: Rebel-16.2 [t8] 18,5/30 == ·· == =1 == 1= 1= == 0= =1 1= == 1= =1 =1 == 270,50
03: CSTal2-v21-E1162-130-EASavx2 [t8] 18,5/30 == == ·· == == == =0 == == =1 == 1= 1= =1 11 11 257,25
04: Dragon-3.1-64bit-avx2 [t8] 18,0/30 1= =0 == ·· == == == 11 == =1 == =1 1= == 0= 11 261,75
05: Lc0 0.29.0 Nvidia RTX 3060 [j92-100] 18,0/30 == == == == ·· == == == 1= == == == =1 =1 =1 11 255,50
06: Crystal_x64_060622_Tactical_E_AVX [t8] 17,0/30 00 0= == == == ·· == 1= == 10 1= == == 11 11 1= 235,75
07: Stockfish15.1_avx2 [t8] 16,5/30 == 0= =1 == == == ·· 0= == == == =1 11 11 00 1= 240,75
08: Ethereal-14.00-pext-avx2 [t8] 16,5/30 == == == 00 == 0= 1= ·· == == == 1= == == 11 11 230,00
09: Dragon-3.1-64bit-avx2 [t8, mcts] 15,0/30 0= 1= == == 0= == == == ·· 1= == =0 == == 1= == 221,00
10: Wasp600-windows-avx [t8] 13,5/30 00 =0 =0 =0 == 01 == == 0= ·· =1 == 0= =1 11 == 188,50
11: CSTal2-v21-E1019-Elo.avx2 [t8] 13,0/30 0= 0= == == == 0= == == == =0 ·· 1= == 0= == 01 192,75
12: DeepHiarcs15 [t8] 12,5/30 =0 == 0= =0 == == =0 0= =1 == 0= ·· == == == == 184,00
13: Komodo-14.1-64bit [t8, mcts] 12,5/30 == 0= 0= 0= =0 == 00 == == 1= == == ·· =0 == =1 179,25
14: Komodo-14.1-64bit [t8] 12,5/30 =0 =0 =0 == =0 00 00 == == =0 1= == =1 ·· 1= =1 172,00
15: Chiron-5-64bit [t8] 10,0/30 0= =0 00 1= =0 00 11 00 0= 00 == == == 0= ·· 01 148,25
16: Booot6.5 [t8] 8,5/30 0= == 00 00 00 0= 0= 00 == == 10 == =0 =0 10 ·· 121,50

240 Partien gespielt / Turnier beendet
Name des Turniers: Ryzen9 3950x 2023
Ort/ Land: DESKTOP-D269HUC, Deutschland
Spielstufe: Turnier 40/10
Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3950X mit Nvidia Geforce RTX 3060 mit 12 GB Speicher

permanent brain on.

Posts : 1254 Join date : 2020-11-17 Location : France

mwyoung wrote:

Chris Whittington wrote:

mwyoung wrote:: I will just setup my other computer with CST2 with faster cores. As see how CST2 scales on a other computer. This will tell us if this is a 2950x issue, or a CST2 issues running on 16 CPU.

if you didn't set yourself as a power user, threads will be limited to cores / 2

Is this a CST2 option, As my computer is using all cores with CST2. Question

It’s an option to be a power user. If you select to be one, then you can have more threads.

README the documentation.

Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA

Chris Whittington wrote:

mwyoung wrote:

Chris Whittington wrote:

mwyoung wrote:: I will just setup my other computer with CST2 with faster cores. As see how CST2 scales on a other computer. This will tell us if this is a 2950x issue, or a CST2 issues running on 16 CPU.

if you didn't set yourself as a power user, threads will be limited to cores / 2

Is this a CST2 option, As my computer is using all cores with CST2. Question

It’s an option to be a power user. If you select to be one, then you can have more threads.

README the documentation.

I am a power user, and have all threads working. CST2 is just spinning on both computers as you increase the threads.

4 CPU is faster then 16 CPU.

You can see it playing live here.

Posts : 222 Join date : 2021-08-28

I understand a "power user" to be a person who can read the readme and who does not assign 16 cores to an engine when 16 are available. A computer with 16 cores does not make you a "power user".

Subject: Re: Chess System Tal 2 released Sat Jul 01, 2023 7:17 pm

I have the feeling with 8 cores on my 16 core machine it uses 1 core, and with 4 cores on the 8 core machine it uses 4 cores.
At least it makes more NPS with 4 cores then with 8.

Subject: Re: Chess System Tal 2 released Sat Jul 01, 2023 7:18 pm

Dio wrote:: I understand a "power user" to be a person who can read the readme and who does not assign 16 cores to an engine when 16 are available. A computer with 16 cores does not make you a "power user".

But with 16 cores it should compute as if it has 8 when i give it 8.
And it computes as if it uses 1 core.

Whatever. All the other pc engines work normal.
When i gove the others 8 cores they compute for 8 cores.
Only cstal is different.

Maybe it does not want to make too many NPS not to beat them all , kind of
Friendly gesture so the others still can feel good.

Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA

Dio wrote:: I understand a "power user" to be a person who can read the readme and who does not assign 16 cores to an engine when 16 are available. A computer with 16 cores does not make you a "power user".

Here is the setting file. CST2 is playing with all 16 cores. All cores are being used. Only 3.2 Mnps.

{
"app" :
{
"arguments" : [],
"author" : "id author Chris Whittington (C) 2003-2023",
"color" : 4293957279,
"command" : "C:/Users/Corsair/Desktop/Chess engines for Banksia/Chess System Tal 2/Chess-System-Tal-2.00-v21-E1019-Elo.opt-avx2.exe",
"elo" : 0,
"gpu" : false,
"idName" : "Chess-System-Tal-2.00",
"initStrings" : [],
"name" : "Chess-System-Tal-2.00",
"protocol" : "uci",
"working folder" : "C:\\Users\\Corsair\\Desktop\\Chess engines for Banksia\\Chess System Tal 2"
},
"comment" : "",
"options" :
[
{
"default" : 256,
"max" : 131072,
"min" : 16,
"name" : "Hash",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 4096
},
{
"default" : 1,
"max" : 64,
"min" : 1,
"name" : "Threads",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 16
},
{
"default" : 202,
"max" : 256,
"min" : 1,
"name" : "Evalcorrect",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 202
},
{
"default" : false,
"name" : "Ponder",
"type" : "check",
"value" : false
},
{
"default" : true,
"name" : "Rep2_Draw_Trolling",
"type" : "check",
"value" : true
},
{
"default" : 7,
"max" : 25,
"min" : 1,
"name" : "TC_Move_Overhead",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 7
},
{
"default" : 100,
"max" : 200,
"min" : 50,
"name" : "TC_Aggression",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 100
},
{
"default" : "book.bin",
"name" : "Bookfile",
"type" : "string",
"value" : "book.bin"
},
{
"default" : 0,
"max" : 200,
"min" : 0,
"name" : "Bookdepth",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 0
},
{
"default" : 0,
"max" : 100,
"min" : 0,
"name" : "Bookrandom",
"type" : "spin",
"value" : 0
}
]
}

Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA

Mclane wrote:: I have the feeling with 8 cores on my 16 core machine it uses 1 core, and with 4 cores on the 8 core machine it uses 4 cores.
At least it makes more NPS with 4 cores then with 8.

Thanks,

I thought it was just me! lol!

Subject: Re: Chess System Tal 2 released Sat Jul 01, 2023 7:31 pm

From the README -

For Power Users
Windows and some UI's can become unstable if threads are set too high, use at your own risk
setoption name RelaxThreadLimit value N (set yourself as a power user)

Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA

Admin wrote:: From the README -

For Power Users
Windows and some UI's can become unstable if threads are set too high, use at your own risk setoption name RelaxThreadLimit value N (set yourself as a power user)

Thanks,

It looks like 4 CPU is best on my computer. That SUCKS!

I do not have that option.

Posts : 125 Join date : 2022-07-19

Ray wrote:: What is the correct name for this on ratings lists. Ive already seen several variations

CS Tal 2.00

Chess System Tal 2.00

Chess-System-Tal-NNUE-2

Chess System Tal 2

ChessSystemTal2-v21-e1019-e1162-130

Chess-System-Tal-NNUE-2
This is probably the most accurate name, but it should be categorized under Rebel engines still, I think since its the same framework.

Posts : 125 Join date : 2022-07-19

mwyoung wrote:

Damir Desevac wrote:: Who cares about knodes, important is the playing style.. In case you have not noticed CST2 is using 138 MB nnue.. That would explain the lower nodes on your machine..

Hey Mr. Snark, I only care about if CST2 is running correctly in testing.

What I noticed is not 138 MB nnue.

In this picture you're clearly showing Rebel 14.1 Tal. Not CSTal NNUE 2

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