More Chessbase Propaganda.
+3 TheSelfImprover
Ray
mwyoung
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Author Message mwyoung
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Ray
Posts : Join date : It is a factual article by a well respected chess expert. You can hardly blame them for publishing something positive after all of the completely over the top and extreme criticism they have been receiving.
mwyoung
Posts : Join date : Location : Ray wrote: It is a factual article by a well respected chess expert. You can hardly blame them for publishing something positive after all of the completely over the top and extreme criticism they have been receiving. I own Fat Fritz 2. I just do not publish on Fat Fritz 2. And it is not truthful. And you can not defend the first part of his conclusions as this is not an opinion.
I find anyone that puts out false information to the unknowing public disgusting. To buy an inferior chess engine, when the true engine that meets these conclusions is free.
"Conclusion: From engine match testing, analyses of my own games, and opening theory evaluations, I’m convinced that Fat Fritz 2 is the best overall chess analysis tool available."
About Stephen Ham
Lifetime Minnesota resident and retired banker. Steve has been an ICCF Grandmaster since 2010, with a peak-rating of 2596 (2015). He's represented Team USA on Board #1 in several ICCF Olympiads, including the most recent edition. Hobbies include: weight lifting, music, and gardening.
He is a Hack!
Some do publish Fat Fritz 2 results, and you can see their results. My results have a LOS of 100%, and it is not for Fat Fritz 2.
TheSelfImprover
Posts : Join date : I can see both points of view: Stephen Ham is a proven expert on chess analysis and is entitled to say what he thinks, but OTOH independent ratings seem to put the new Stockfish ahead of FF2.
Ray
Posts : Join date : TheSelfImprover wrote: I can see both points of view: Stephen Ham is a proven expert on chess analysis and is entitled to say what he thinks, but OTOH independent ratings seem to put the new Stockfish ahead of FF2. Yes, in engine matches yes. But ratings lists are only a guide, especially when the ratings are close. Sure, if an engine is +200 Elo stronger then you can pretty much guarantee that it will be a better analysis tool. But if two engines are within say 50 Elo of each other, then I'd say that is probably inconclusive.
Mclane
Posts : Join date : Age : Location : Did ham also publish insider articles about stockfish nnue ?!
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mwyoung
Posts : Join date : Location : Ray wrote: TheSelfImprover wrote: I can see both points of view: Stephen Ham is a proven expert on chess analysis and is entitled to say what he thinks, but OTOH independent ratings seem to put the new Stockfish ahead of FF2. This is the so called expert's own words.
"Conclusion: From engine match testing, analyses of my own games, and opening theory evaluations, I’m convinced that Fat Fritz 2 is the best overall chess analysis tool available."
I have already shown his first conclusion is not factual, and pushed it over. Stephen's problem is once that happens, his other conclusions fall like dominos. Since engine testing is nothing more then a shootout of battling analysis of one position after another. That we call chess games. But in engine matches we keep score, and we find out what program has the better analysis. And those results are not opinion!
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Nezhman
Posts : Join date : mwyoung wrote: Ray wrote: TheSelfImprover wrote: I can see both points of view: Stephen Ham is a proven expert on chess analysis and is entitled to say what he thinks, but OTOH independent ratings seem to put the new Stockfish ahead of FF2. Which engine is best for analysis is highly debatable. It also matters what the analysis is for, whether it be correspondence chess or OTB prep, or even some specific endgame research. It depends on other factors, too, such as which engine is more prone to play aggressively for a win with Black, or based on a chosen opening, or stage of the game. The context and setting of the analysis matters a lot.
I know first hand that I may prefer somewhat weaker engines for analysis, especially if looking for second opinions and alternate views and ideas. I don't play correspondence chess like Stephen Ham, but even there a weaker engine with good style can offer good insights.
In the end it is just one man's opinion. Others may deem either SF or Leela best for analysis, and I doubt CB would publish their views.
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Ray
Posts : Join date : Also, people often analyse positions for several hours . Sometimes days. In ratings lists the engines get seconds in most cases for moves, or minutes for a move best case, no more. Huge difference.
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mwyoung
Posts : Join date : Location : Ray wrote: Also, people often analyse positions for several hours . Sometimes days. In ratings lists the engines get seconds in most cases for moves, or minutes for a move best case, no more. Huge difference. Yes it does make a huge difference. Or does it. Because it is Stockfish 13 that wins the race over Fat Fritz 2. In Stephen Ham's example.
My advice is do not believe Stephen Ham and Chessbase propaganda. Without checking it out yourself. I did and I know it is false. Because I do check these things out. As I am a chess engine tester. And I do not want to put out false information.
So I ran the position again to post it here for you. Fat Frtiz 2 picking 16. Rab1 first was a minor blip. And changed backed to 16. Rfb1. And it was Stockfish 13 who had the better time and analysis in his example.
r1b1r3/pp1n1pkp/5np1/3p2B1/2pP4/2P1P2B/P2N1PPP/R4RK1 w - - 0 1 Position from Stephen Ham's Chessbase Hack Job.
Stockfish 13.
Code: Line 0.0
Fat Fritz 2
Code: Line 0.0
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TheSelfImprover
Posts : Join date : Let me get this straight: in the position which Stephen Ham used in the article in praise of FF2, the timeline on your machine was as follows:00:26 FF2 finds Rab1 Stephen's preferred move (mine too - but I'm not as qualified as Stephen)00:28 FF2 changes its mind and reverts to Rfb100:32 SF13 chooses Rab101:59 FF2 changes its mind again and chooses Rab1
Chris Whittington
Posts : Join date : Location : mwyoung wrote: Ray wrote: It is a factual article by a well respected chess expert. You can hardly blame them for publishing something positive after all of the completely over the top and extreme criticism they have been receiving. Has any other engine using non-SF NNUE (eg it’s claimed to be different, or the architecture actually is different) got close to SF-NNUE in rating? Or is it just A Silver?
mwyoung
Posts : Join date : Location : TheSelfImprover wrote: Let me get this straight: in the position which Stephen Ham used in the article in praise of FF2, the timeline on your machine was as follows:00:26 FF2 finds Rab1 Stephen's preferred move (mine too - but I'm not as qualified as Stephen)00:28 FF2 changes its mind and reverts to Rfb100:32 SF13 chooses Rab101:59 FF2 changes its mind again and chooses Rab1 You got it, and that is called a Hack Job.
mwyoung
Posts : Join date : Location : mwyoung wrote: TheSelfImprover wrote: Let me get this straight: in the position which Stephen Ham used in the article in praise of FF2, the timeline on your machine was as follows:00:26 FF2 finds Rab1 Stephen's preferred move (mine too - but I'm not as qualified as Stephen)00:28 FF2 changes its mind and reverts to Rfb100:32 SF13 chooses Rab101:59 FF2 changes its mind again and chooses Rab1 Here is the run after about 6 hours. Stockfish 13 vs Fat Fritz 2.
mwyoung
Posts : Join date : Location : Chris Whittington wrote: mwyoung wrote: Ray wrote: It is a factual article by a well respected chess expert. You can hardly blame them for publishing something positive after all of the completely over the top and extreme criticism they have been receiving. Hello Chris, and not that I have seen. And I have tested most of them, and posted the results here. Except for Fat Fritz 2 for obvious reasons.
Ozymandias
Posts : Join date : mwyoung wrote: I own Fat Fritz 2. Could you run SIMEX on it against SF13?
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