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 The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!

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mwyoung

mwyoung


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PostSubject: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptyFri Aug 06, 2021 11:13 pm

Rebel wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:05 pm
I never seen any ad on the forum, you?

What happened to SOLIDARITY ?

Solidarity with those who can't access the forum.
Exactly.

e.g. Chris W., Moderator candidate cannot access the forum.
But hey, thats how some people „create“ democratical structures.
By not allowing people to participate they don’t want to see participatin



The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! Muahah10The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! Fotohg10

HGM said he would not allow people to turn his forum back into a "Circus". lol!

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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptyFri Aug 06, 2021 11:25 pm

Mark, do you like Harvey see ads in forum posts?

That would be unacceptable.
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mwyoung

mwyoung


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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptyFri Aug 06, 2021 11:49 pm

Admin wrote:
Mark, do you like Harvey see ads in forum posts?

That would be unacceptable.
No.

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Ray




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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptySat Aug 07, 2021 9:50 am

I don't see ads in forum posts themselves. Only right at the bottom of the page, which is not a problem.

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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptySat Aug 07, 2021 10:51 am

There is indeed an option to get rid of those, 68 euro a year. I never saw one, probably because I am an admin.

But never mind, looking at 1) the lack of interest among the Talkchess members and 2) the kind of feedback of the members who respond there is not going to be a firm decision to expect to move to a new server.

Chessusa itself is not under attack, only the forum. The hacker seems to be on a mission to destroy the forum. And he is winning.
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Chris Whittington




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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptySat Aug 07, 2021 1:19 pm

I tried to access talkchess just now (after a few days). Access denied to one page, but then I tried the general page url and it let me in (as a guest). I read a few posts (maybe two minutes) and then got access denied again when tried to follow threads.
Tried another URL, got in. Tried to login. Access denied.
I skim read the few posts (above session) but not enough to get what is happening via a vis elections, candidates, moving the forum. Getting in as a guest (randomly, i was often unable to that even), getting thrown off after a couple of clicks and not being able to login renders the site useless and impossible basically.

On a different site concept. I read something about needing the “database”. Actually, a couple of years ago, I downloaded every single pages off all the forums (not too difficult using a Python script I wrote), and each page contains all its own links and indexing to its own threads and structure.
All those pages (they’re in ascii) could presumably be linked back and to each other in another thing, call it real-talkchess.com.
The entire indexed user name list can also be downloaded. It’s indexing maps into the mass of (downloadable as above) web pages that form the “database”, the only thing lacking are the passwords for each user.
So, with a bit of programming effort, you could create real-talkchess.com and have actual real users reclaim their ids plus password. Might need some sort of oversight to ensure integrity of username-password connect, but that’s about it. Alternatively, everyone is a guest and active users just make a new registration. I could be ChrisWhitt instead of ChrisW, for example, and take it from there.
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Chris Whittington




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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptySat Aug 07, 2021 1:19 pm

I tried to access talkchess just now (after a few days). Access denied to one page, but then I tried the general page url and it let me in (as a guest). I read a few posts (maybe two minutes) and then got access denied again when tried to follow threads.
Tried another URL, got in. Tried to login. Access denied.
I skim read the few posts (above session) but not enough to get what is happening via a vis elections, candidates, moving the forum. Getting in as a guest (randomly, i was often unable to that even), getting thrown off after a couple of clicks and not being able to login renders the site useless and impossible basically.

On a different site concept. I read something about needing the “database”. Actually, a couple of years ago, I downloaded every single pages off all the forums (not too difficult using a Python script I wrote), and each page contains all its own links and indexing to its own threads and structure.
All those pages (they’re in ascii) could presumably be linked back and to each other in another thing, call it real-talkchess.com.
The entire indexed user name list can also be downloaded. It’s indexing maps into the mass of (downloadable as above) web pages that form the “database”, the only thing lacking are the passwords for each user.
So, with a bit of programming effort, you could create real-talkchess.com and have actual real users reclaim their ids plus password. Might need some sort of oversight to ensure integrity of username-password connect, but that’s about it. Alternatively, everyone is a guest and active users just make a new registration. I could be ChrisWhitt instead of ChrisW, for example, and take it from there.
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Chris Whittington




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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptySat Aug 07, 2021 1:23 pm

Addendum to above. WRT computer chess wiki.
If real-talkchess.com were constituted with all talkchess posts included, one would, at creation, just by cut and paste, alter all the url links from talkchess.com to real talkchess.com

Then the wiki admin can just take everting single url link to talkchess and change it to real-talkchess. Job done. Problem solved.
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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptySat Aug 07, 2021 4:56 pm

Chris, I remember you did that making author puzzles, that was fun. How big became the database?

In any case the real-talkchess (haha) database can't be moved on forumotion.com since (as far as I know) there is no FTP access. But that should not be a problem, nowadays for 60 euro a year (24 euro the first year) one gets a domain name, 50Gb storage and FTP.
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Chris Whittington




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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptySat Aug 07, 2021 6:15 pm

Admin wrote:
Chris, I remember you did that making author puzzles, that was fun. How big became the database?

In any case the real-talkchess (haha) database can't be moved on forumotion.com since (as far as I know) there is no FTP access. But that should not be a problem, nowadays for 60 euro a year (24 euro the first year) one gets a domain name, 50Gb storage and FTP.

Someone will know how to get it across. Each post is just an html web page, full of links and indexes. No real problem to put it all back together.

Umm, well, each html page is a few K, and there are, dunno, forget, several thousand html pages, but it’s only text, maybe a lot of megabytes? I seem to remember it took some hours to grab all the data, and you know my internet speed is pathetic, plus getting the data requires two-way setting url and asking for the data, as if a normal user, so maybe all-in-all we’re not talking gigabytes of data. Manageable amounts, I’ld imagine.
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Chris Whittington




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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptySat Aug 07, 2021 6:18 pm

Admin wrote:
Chris, I remember you did that making author puzzles, that was fun. How big became the database?

In any case the real-talkchess (haha) database can't be moved on forumotion.com since (as far as I know) there is no FTP access. But that should not be a problem, nowadays for 60 euro a year (24 euro the first year) one gets a domain name, 50Gb storage and FTP.

I doubt “we” old timers would actually do it. We (you mostly) could help be a nucleus to organise it, and, possibly importantly, we as remainder of Founders Group can legitimise is because we “own” the name.

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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptyTue Aug 10, 2021 9:00 am

It's a good thing the database can be restored in case it is needed. Like you I would not be in the front line to do the job but active support, sure.
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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptyTue Aug 10, 2021 12:32 pm

There is an important discussion going on about the hierarchy of power in Talkchess. For those who can't access Talkchess I will quote. HGM can have his say here if he wants, he can subscribe again.


Re: Time to say thanks to ChessUSA for all the good years and move
Post by H.G.Muller » Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:53 am

To reduce confusion about who does what:

There are registered members, who can post, and read some of the non-public forum sections.
There are moderators, who can edit, move or delete other member's postings in the forum sections they moderate.
There are board admins, who can configure the forum (add or remove sections, enable and disable some functionalty), and manage the member list (activate new registrations, ban members or delete their accounts), grant moderator rights to members.
There is a webmaster, who has ftp and ssh access to the server, can install software there (such as phpBB upgrades).
There is a provider, who has physical access to the server, and can pull the plug.

--------------------------

Re: Time to say thanks to ChessUSA for all the good years and move
Post by Rebel » Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:23 pm

And there is a hacker on a mission to destroy this forum. And so far he is winning. Any news from Quentin?

Besides of that, Thorsten is right, at creation time of the forum with chessusa (Steven Schwartz at the time) as host it was agreed that the forum belongs to its members. And that members elect their own 3 leaders two times a year. The admin at the time (Tim M. of chessusa) under the lead of the moderators cooperated to keep the forum going. I would like to see that basic democratic fundament intact. The first 3 moderators in 1997 were: Bob Hyatt, Enrique Irazoqui and Dirk Frickensmidt. Thorsten was one of the founders, he knows, Chris W. is a founder (he wrote the charter, unchanged till today), Bob was a founder, you can ask him as well.

Of course chessusa can pull the plug, they pay the bill.

--------------------------------------

Re: Time to say thanks to ChessUSA for all the good years and move
Post by H.G.Muller » Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:34 pm

ChessUSA is not the provider; they just rent the server in some data center. Quentin Turner of ChessUSA is the webmaster, though.

The technical reality is that there is a hierarchy of power, where every level is at the mercy of higher levels, which roughly goes from physical access -> root access -> webmaster access -> board admin -> moderators -> members -> guests. This is contrary to what is needed for enforcing a democratic system; the latter depends on those in power to be trustworthy, and voluntarily restrain himself for staying within their mandate. It is therefore important that the mandate is clearly specified. Unfortunately the charter says nothing about this. This seems a serious omission. We should extend the charter with a description on the methof of governance, and the tasks and limitations of every role in this. So that people to fulfil those roles can be 'sworn in' to abide to those rules. And be removed from power by someone higher in the technical hierarchy when they abuse these powers.

The following system seems workable:
* A team of 3 moderators will be appointed by the members through elections organized by the board admin.
* In case of disagreement, the moderators decide by majority vote.
* The moderators decide on organization of the forum (which sections exist) in the program they anounce before the elections, so that any changes in forum structure will also be under democratic control.
* The moderator team decides on sanctioning of members, such as banning or revoking membership, which on their request has to be performed by the admin.
* Moderators are appointed until the next moderator election, which can be requested by the memberships no sooner than 6 months after a previous election, or when one or more moderators offer their resignation.
* A 'rogue moderator' can get his moderator status revoked by the admin on request of the remaining two moderators; such impeachment counts as a resignation of the team.
* When the admin considers the behavior of the moderator team in violation of the charter, or the election program the moderators have been running with, he can start a referendum calling for impeachment of the moderation team, in which all members can vote.

------------------------------------------------

Re: Time to say thanks to ChessUSA for all the good years and move
Post by Rebel » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:48 am

In general I am in agreement and as such the forum more or less has operated since 1997, EXCEPT for one thing, the hierarchy of power of the admin (colored red above). It can't be that one person has absolute power. Also not 2 persons. Always 3 because of the democratic majority vote. And that would be the 3 elected moderators by the members. This all was well thought out during the foundation of the forum by the founder group. Giving the admin absolute power would be a breach with the stipulations on which this forum was founded.

Some other comments,

1. You speak of a 'rogue moderator' and what should be done, but forget to mention the case of a 'rogue admin' and what should be done then. In your supposed hierarchy of power system nothing can be done.

2. In your supposed hierarchy of power system where the admin has absolute power the question arises, how is he elected and by whom?

There are no such problems in the original set up by the founder group.

--------------------------------------

Re: Time to say thanks to ChessUSA for all the good years and move
Post by H.G.Muller » Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:23 am

The board software is such that an admin has absolute power over the moderators. We either have to live with that, or we should develop our own forum software that organizes things differently. And even then we would be subject to the absolute power of the webmaster, who could modify that software any time he pleases.

So it doesn't seem very productive arguing about whether this is good or bad. It is what it is.

The only way to recover from a rogue admin is to have the webmaster remove him directly from the member database. The only way to recover from a rogue webmaster is to have the server superuser remove the webmaster from the server's password file. The only way to recover from a rogue provider is raid his data center with the aid of the police to confiscate the server. But there will always be someone at the top of the food chain.

It would be nice if a majority of the members, or a majority of the moderators, could 'vote away' an admin or a webmaster. But I don't know any operating system that grants super-user rights based on majority voting.

----------------------------------------

Re: Time to say thanks to ChessUSA for all the good years and move
Post by Rebel » Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:35 am

An non elected webmaster, an non elected admin ?

Sorry HGM totally unacceptable.

Hierarchy of power, yours vs mine. Mine is the set up of the founder group.
Code:
Yours           Mine
1. webmaster    members
2. admin        moderators
3. moderators   admin
4. members      webmaster

In case of a rough moderator or admin members have the right to call for an impeachment. Such a case successfully happened in CTF.
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mwyoung

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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptyTue Aug 10, 2021 10:11 pm

Admin wrote:
There is indeed an option to get rid of those, 68 euro a year. I never saw one, probably because I am an admin.

But never mind, looking at 1) the lack of interest among the Talkchess members and 2) the kind of feedback of the members who respond there is not going to be a firm decision to expect to move to a new server.

Chessusa itself is not under attack, only the forum. The hacker seems to be on a mission to destroy the forum. And he is winning.


"Chessusa itself is not under attack, only the forum. The hacker seems to be on a mission to destroy the forum. And he is winning"

And I am rooting for the hacker! With HGM in charge dictating terms.
The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! Probab10

lol!

How do you catch a double-0?
How do you match a double-0?
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Mclane

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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptyWed Aug 11, 2021 9:40 am

The admin cannot be above the moderators because they have a mandat from the members via democratical elections.
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Chris Whittington




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PostSubject: Re: The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM!   The Keys to the Kingdom are mine. HGM! EmptyWed Aug 11, 2021 10:00 am

It’s completely ridiculous that a forum (any forum) should require a complex set of rules about hierarchies, moderators, members abs all other self important bullshit. Talkchess has all that nonsense deliberately because the shop originally designed that it be that way. It suited the shop to have “members” and the forum to be the goto forum to replace RGCC

Actually, it’s just better to have a diversity of forums where no one is more of a big deal than others, and if one forum gets to be a pain, just migrate to another.
Talkchess hierarchy simply promotes any of those with psychopath and or narcissistic tendencies up the hierarchy, and the problem with talkchess hierarchy is that it is beset with power struggles between people with psycho-tendencies and much of the forum plus its gossip and interest centres on the personalities and their struggles to get their hated opponents banned or humiliated in some way.
When a narcissistic maniac gains control of the admin position (HGM), best is to shut up shop, close the narcissistic shit down (as HGM himself says) and make another forum.
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