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 You have no free will ! Really ?

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Mclane

Mclane


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PostSubject: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 6:55 am



Of course she is wrong.
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TheSelfImprover

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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 10:02 am

You have but one choice: which god you will choose to follow.
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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 12:36 pm

Meaning among other things -

. She had no choice giving the speech.

. Putin can't help starting the ugly war in Ukraine, it's determined by the particles in the universe.

. etc.
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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 12:53 pm

BTW, the theory of the lady is not new, it came with the Reformation in the person of Calvin, called Calvinism. Everything is determined from the beginning to the end, everybody has to play its own role in life in the grand scheme of God, one big puppet show.

Of course I am not a Calvinist but its counter part called Arminianism.

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Mclane

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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 4:24 pm

Sie is a physicist.
She believes in laws. Order. Everything is determined. Like descartes said.
And she includes classical theories,  Einsteins theories and quantum mechanics into her consideration.  IMO quantum mechanics is the key for finding free will and soul.
Of course she will call this as metaphysics. Ed calls it religion.
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TheSelfImprover

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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 5:46 pm

If we have no free will, things ought to be more predictable - but we can't even predict the moves in a chess game (or even the weather)!

The problem with prediction is "sensitive dependence on initial conditions" (the "Butterfly Effect" - link): a small change in the initial conditions will lead to big changes later on.

Another problem is that you adapting to the world will cause the world to adapt to you: for example, if you discovered a formula for picking successful investments consistently, it's very likely that once you started making big money from it, it would stop working.
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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 8:27 pm

Mclane wrote:
Sie is a physicist.
She believes in laws. Order. Everything is determined.  Like descartes said.
And she includes classical theories,  Einsteins theories and quantum mechanics into her consideration.  IMO quantum mechanics is the key for finding free will and soul.
Of course she will call this as metaphysics. Ed calls it religion.

I have called it a specific branch of Christianity in which I don't believe.
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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 8:31 pm

TheSelfImprover wrote:
If we have no free will, things ought to be more predictable - but we can't even predict the moves in a chess game (or even the weather)!

The problem with prediction is "sensitive dependence on initial conditions" (the "Butterfly Effect" - link): a small change in the initial conditions will lead to big changes later on.

Another problem is that you adapting to the world will cause the world to adapt to you: for example, if you discovered a formula for picking successful investments consistently, it's very likely that once you started making big money from it, it would stop working.

The movie The Butterfly Effect is quite entertaining.
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Mclane

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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 8:44 pm

IMO one key question is: if we live in the now, is past and future existing in the moment and we only ride on the wave of NOW called life ?
If it is deterministic it should be .

Or is past and future changing depending on our decisions or even depending on the decisions of ALL people deciding anything.

E.g. if people now think hitler is a criminal fascistic dictator, can it be the past changes in the moment the people in life decide this was a wrong „historical interpretation“. Will then the past change itself too ??

Or is the past ever fixed like it „was“ and the future not decided yet.
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Ozymandias




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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 8:57 pm

I rate The Butterfly Effect 8/10. But then again, I like time travel stories, specially loops like Groundhog Day, Source Code, Triangle and Edge of Tomorrow.
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TheSelfImprover

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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptySat Aug 06, 2022 8:48 am

Mclane wrote:
E.g. if people now think hitler is a criminal fascistic dictator, can it be the past changes in the moment the people in life decide this was a wrong „historical interpretation“. Will then the past change itself too ??

Or is the past ever fixed like it „was“ and the future not decided yet.


You cannot change the past: however, our interpretation of the past can change MASSIVELY. I have noticed that on discussing the past, it seems to get framed in accordance with whatever the big issue of the present is - and to an impressive extent!

This is not based on research, this is only guesswork, but here's how it might relate to Hitler:

(1) In the present, living standards have dropped DRAMATICALLY. Everything seems to be falling apart. Things that weren't previously an issue for most people, like putting food on the table or keeping houses warm, suddenly become prohibitively difficult. People yearn for a strong leader: someone like Hitler.

(2) In the present, people are rich. It's a "gilded age" in which all but the very poorest have cars, TVs, warm houses, food, and good healthcare. People are repulsed by prejudice. People cannot understand how anyone would ever vote for a "strong man" leader like Hitler
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TheSelfImprover

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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptySat Aug 06, 2022 8:54 am

Regarding free will: it might be easier to think in terms of machines rather than people.

A chess computer clearly doesn't have free will: it follows its programming slavishly.

Let's go ultra-simple: a light switch (and even the most complex computers are based on switching). Assuming it's not broken, you reverse the switch and the light bulb reverses its on/off status. Where's the light switch's free will?

What would free will in a machine look like?
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Mclane

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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptySat Aug 06, 2022 10:12 am

How do you know the past is not changing ?
I mean: would you have any methods to find out ?
Is the future changing too depending on your decisions in the NOW ?
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Henk




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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptySat Aug 06, 2022 10:25 am

My memories of the past are not changing much.
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Henk




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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptySat Aug 06, 2022 10:27 am

TheSelfImprover wrote:
Regarding free will: it might be easier to think in terms of machines rather than people.

A chess computer clearly doesn't have free will: it follows its programming slavishly.

Let's go ultra-simple: a light switch (and even the most complex computers are based on switching). Assuming it's not broken, you reverse the switch and the light bulb reverses its on/off status. Where's the light switch's free will?

What would free will in a machine look like?

Implement free will by a random number generator. By the way who cares if you have free will or not if you are always held responsible for your actions. O wait you have unconscious decisions too.
What was it?  Make unconscious conscious. When possible to prevent more evil.
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TheSelfImprover

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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptySat Aug 06, 2022 12:41 pm

Henk wrote:
TheSelfImprover wrote:
Regarding free will: it might be easier to think in terms of machines rather than people.

A chess computer clearly doesn't have free will: it follows its programming slavishly.

Let's go ultra-simple: a light switch (and even the most complex computers are based on switching). Assuming it's not broken, you reverse the switch and the light bulb reverses its on/off status. Where's the light switch's free will?

What would free will in a machine look like?

Implement free will by a random number generator. By the way who cares if you have free will or not if you are always held responsible for your actions. O wait you have unconscious decisions too.
What was it?  Make unconscious conscious. When possible to prevent more evil.


Hmmmm... an indicator of this would be that people who follow "mindfulness" practices have a lower crime rate than those who do not.
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TheSelfImprover

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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptySat Aug 06, 2022 12:46 pm

Mclane wrote:
How do you know the past is not changing ? I mean: would you have any methods to find out ?


In your model, when the past changes, all the events from the moment the past changed to the present moment would change as well?

This implies that, instead of being "real", we're part of a model running on a massive computer - and the operator of the model likes to revert the model to a previous state, change some parameters, and re-run the model from then.
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Mclane

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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptySat Aug 06, 2022 1:36 pm

In my model energy moves into all directions of space and time.
E.g. IMO the energy that is collected in the middle of our galaxy, the black hole there, sends it back into time.
Energy itself gets never lost. Only it changes space or time axis.

Think about the following. Science says past is fixed.
The decisions of the life forms make the shape the past is fixed into. And future is open.
It can be anything.

But this would be non deterministic.
Only the past would be completely determined.
But energy is not following this one way street of movement.
Energy moves in all directions and all dimensions.
When energy moves into the past it causes a reaction there. This reaction moves like a wave in the sea into all directions again.
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Henk




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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptySat Aug 06, 2022 2:11 pm

if history changes but we don't experience any difference who cares.

O wait a copy of a piece of art is very much cheaper than the original.
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TheSelfImprover

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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptySat Aug 06, 2022 3:41 pm

Henk wrote:
if history changes but we don't experience any difference who cares.


If Mclane's idea that energy flows into the past and changes it is correct, you could wake up tomorrow a self-made rich and handsome man with girls lining up at your door!

Cool
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Henk




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PostSubject: Re: You have no free will ! Really ?   You have no free will ! Really ? EmptySat Aug 06, 2022 4:22 pm

TheSelfImprover wrote:
Henk wrote:
if history changes but we don't experience any difference who cares.


If Mclane's idea that energy flows into the past and changes it is correct, you could wake up tomorrow a self-made rich and handsome man with girls lining up at your door!

Cool

If so then you are not the same person as you are now for your past has changed and you have different memories. Also your body has changed or you might not exist or be another person with different parents.
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