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 Syzygy questions

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Admin
Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyMon Feb 13, 2023 8:32 am

I am new to Syzygy table bases.

I have downloaded the 5-men and it works nicely.

Now I want the 6-men and with a torrent downloading -

Syzygy 6-man WDL torrent
Syzygy 6-man DTZ torrent

I don't quite understand why you need 2 files.

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Ipmanchess




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Join date : 2022-06-08

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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyMon Feb 13, 2023 9:49 am

Check here: https://github.com/syzygy1/tb

Or ask Ronald de Man ,e-mail at bottom from his Github
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mwyoung

mwyoung


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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyMon Feb 13, 2023 2:05 pm

Admin wrote:
I am new to Syzygy table bases.

I have downloaded the 5-men and it works nicely.

Now I want the 6-men and with a torrent downloading -

Syzygy 6-man WDL torrent
Syzygy 6-man DTZ torrent

I don't quite understand why you need 2 files.


You do need both files. And I would suggest downloading the Banksia GUI. And use the GUI to download the files. It is the easiest way to get the files. And you will have tools to make sure you have all the files. And that the files are working.

And you can grab the some of the 7 man files if you wish. Or all of them. Like the top 10 most useful 7 man files.
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Chris Whittington




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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyMon Feb 13, 2023 2:39 pm

Admin wrote:
I am new to Syzygy table bases.

I have downloaded the 5-men and it works nicely.

Now I want the 6-men and with a torrent downloading -

Syzygy 6-man WDL torrent
Syzygy 6-man DTZ torrent

I don't quite understand why you need 2 files.


One (the smaller one) stores WDL only (1,0,-1)
The other (larger) stores distance to mate (1-256)
Lookup time is different also.

If you intend to use DTZ for NNUE, then the resulting evals will be in range very large positive or very large negative. NNUE is not too good at discretely resolving very large scores, so one could question the worth of getting at the DTZ evals, rather than using WDL.
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Ipmanchess




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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyMon Feb 13, 2023 3:18 pm

Just for info:

I did a test with Stockfish 15.1 with and without using 6-men syzygy , 24.000games ,TC 10s+1s

Stockfish 15.1 avx512 noTB gain +1Elo ,Ordo +0.9Elo above Stockfish 15.1 avx512

You can scroll down to Date 16-12-2022 : https://ipmanchess.yolasite.com/testings-i9-7980xe.php

Just to show there is no gain anymore..it started with +20Elo when they came out..
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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyMon Feb 13, 2023 5:22 pm

Ipmanchess wrote:
Just for info:

I did a test with Stockfish 15.1 with and without using 6-men syzygy , 24.000games ,TC 10s+1s

Stockfish 15.1 avx512 noTB gain +1Elo ,Ordo +0.9Elo above Stockfish 15.1 avx512

You can scroll down to Date 16-12-2022 : https://ipmanchess.yolasite.com/testings-i9-7980xe.php

Just to show there is no gain anymore..it started with +20Elo when they came out..

It's likely SF has TB knowledge inside, that they have tuned their net with syzygy, we don't.

Also, a 3400/3500 elo engine should be able to mate cases like the KBNK etc. thus invest some energy as a final touch.
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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyMon Feb 13, 2023 5:29 pm

Chris Whittington wrote:
Admin wrote:
I am new to Syzygy table bases.

I have downloaded the 5-men and it works nicely.

Now I want the 6-men and with a torrent downloading -

Syzygy 6-man WDL torrent
Syzygy 6-man DTZ torrent

I don't quite understand why you need 2 files.


One (the smaller one) stores WDL only (1,0,-1)
The other (larger) stores distance to mate  (1-256)
Lookup time is different also.

If you intend to use DTZ for NNUE, then the resulting evals will be in range very large positive or very large negative. NNUE is not too good at discretely resolving very large scores, so one could question the worth of getting at the DTZ evals, rather than using WDL.

The idea is create a very selective binpack as +95% of the NNUE evaluations are already right even at low depths, what remains will be stored with a recreated score, material + PST. I assume with DTZ a draw will result a zero.
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mwyoung

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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyMon Feb 13, 2023 8:58 pm

Ipmanchess wrote:
Just for info:

I did a test with Stockfish 15.1 with and without using 6-men syzygy , 24.000games ,TC 10s+1s

Stockfish 15.1 avx512 noTB gain +1Elo ,Ordo +0.9Elo above Stockfish 15.1 avx512

You can scroll down to Date 16-12-2022 : https://ipmanchess.yolasite.com/testings-i9-7980xe.php

Just to show there is no gain anymore..it started with +20Elo when they came out..

I tested this also, and I found it helped in 1 in 100 games on average.

And I tested with the top 10 7 man.

Not a huge gain, but I will take that 1%.
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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyMon Feb 13, 2023 9:08 pm

mwyoung wrote:
Ipmanchess wrote:
Just for info:

I did a test with Stockfish 15.1 with and without using 6-men syzygy , 24.000games ,TC 10s+1s

Stockfish 15.1 avx512 noTB gain +1Elo ,Ordo +0.9Elo above Stockfish 15.1 avx512

You can scroll down to Date 16-12-2022 : https://ipmanchess.yolasite.com/testings-i9-7980xe.php

Just to show there is no gain anymore..it started with +20Elo when they came out..

I tested this also, and I found it helped in 1 in 100 games on average.

And I tested with the top 10 7 man.

Not a huge gain, but I will take that 1%.

7 men is 17 TB

https://shop.diginet.pro/sdps24h-032t-mbaab-212206

Only 17,000 euro Rolling Eyes
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mwyoung

mwyoung


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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyMon Feb 13, 2023 9:13 pm

Admin wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
Ipmanchess wrote:
Just for info:

I did a test with Stockfish 15.1 with and without using 6-men syzygy , 24.000games ,TC 10s+1s

Stockfish 15.1 avx512 noTB gain +1Elo ,Ordo +0.9Elo above Stockfish 15.1 avx512

You can scroll down to Date 16-12-2022 : https://ipmanchess.yolasite.com/testings-i9-7980xe.php

Just to show there is no gain anymore..it started with +20Elo when they came out..

I tested this also, and I found it helped in 1 in 100 games on average.

And I tested with the top 10 7 man.

Not a huge gain, but I will take that 1%.

7 men is 17 TB

https://shop.diginet.pro/sdps24h-032t-mbaab-212206

Only 17,000 euro Rolling Eyes

I use only the top 10 most useful 7 man.

If you download them with Banksia. It has this option to automatically download the top 10 most useful 7 man tables.

With those downloaded, and the 6,5,4...  My tablebase file size is 409GB.

The endgame that still causes even Stockfish the most headache. Is the 7 man Queen and pawn endgames.
Next would be the 7 man Rook and pawn endgames.

Stockfish is still unable to find the wins in these endgames. And will draw the game instead of winning. In some cases without the tablebase.
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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyMon Feb 13, 2023 9:34 pm

Ah, good to know, so will download Banksia.

These 10 most useful 7 men are?
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mwyoung

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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyMon Feb 13, 2023 9:41 pm

Admin wrote:
Ah, good to know, so will download Banksia.

These 10 most useful 7 men are?

Just use the GUI. It will download them. It has the option for best 1, 3, and 10 7 man TB.

Go to the Tools tab, then download tab. Then select your download.

Syzygy questions Tb10
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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyTue Feb 14, 2023 1:07 pm

Banksia downloaded and converted two 7-men .tmp files to wdzt and bdtz and then hanged on the third.
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mwyoung

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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyWed Feb 15, 2023 1:49 am

Sorry you are having issues. I never had any issues downloading the files. I will try myself and see what happens. It could be a issue with the current version.
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mwyoung

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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyWed Feb 15, 2023 2:16 am

Everything is working correctly. Did you first setup your TB path before downloading.

Go to settings in Banksia and go to Books& EGTBs. And tell Banksia where to download the files.

You can also check what you have download to see if all your files are good. By clicking on the [i] next to the fold path icon.

And all the files should just be downloaded into main folder, with no subfolders for the different TB man files. You do not need subfolders for 3 man, 4 man, 5 man, 6 man, 7 man.
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mwyoung

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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyWed Feb 15, 2023 3:00 am

I am downloading just the 7 man top 3 to a new folder for a test.

I jumped my concurrency to 9 to work around any stalls from the ftp site.

Using the windows task manager. I see that I am downloading at over 100 Mbps.

If your download stalls, hit stop then restart the download.
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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyWed Feb 15, 2023 9:08 am

Syzygy questions Banksi10

Downloaded 22Gb and then hangs, no cpu activity.

For the moment I have the 3-4-5 men and 6-men installed in different folders using torrents. Perhaps 7-men needs the history of those?
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mwyoung

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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyWed Feb 15, 2023 10:50 am

I was able to download the top 3 7 man in my test folder without issues. I suggest looking at your download speed using the task manager wifi window. And if you download stops. Hit the red stop button, and then just hit restart.

When I woke up this morning. And the download was completed without issues.

The folder size was 66.3GB for the six 7 man files. And it passed the checksum test.

Syzygy questions Tb_tes10
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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyWed Feb 15, 2023 11:22 am

Restarted several times, to no avail. But never mind I will make my own top-10 -

http://tablebase.lichess.ovh/tables/standard/7/4v3_pawnful/
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mwyoung

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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyWed Feb 15, 2023 11:31 am

Admin wrote:
Restarted several times, to no avail. But never mind I will make my own top-10 -

http://tablebase.lichess.ovh/tables/standard/7/4v3_pawnful/

OK, here are the stats for the 7 man TB. If you do not have the stats.

KQPPvskqp is the most helpful. As the engines have the most trouble finding the wins in that endgame.

Syzygy questions 7man_s10

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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: Syzygy questions   Syzygy questions EmptyWed Feb 15, 2023 11:41 am

That's pretty cool.
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