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mwyoung
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Uri Blass




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PostSubject: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 12:51 pm

I do not use lc0 but a friend asked me about the importance of Rtx4080 for lc0.
His plans are to buy Raptor Lake iG of new intel.

He claims that people who do not understand about cuda cannot find a good reply in google.

I asked in the talkchess.com forum but still did not get a reply so I ask also here.
I add another question that he asked me:

These are the best ners for lc0
https://lczero.org/dev/wiki/best-nets-for-lc0/

The question is how you define the best net and from what gpu

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Uri Blass




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 1:06 pm

Earlier he used hebrew and I translated.

Here is the question that he asked me to ask later in english:

"How do you build these nets from the gpu of your video card ?
How should someone who is not a tech guide can set the correct parameters (I've been tried googling it a lot and I cannot understand)

What is the recommended GPU for Leela to make it more accurate for high level anyalysis (I am 2350 FIDE FM) - I intend to use LEELA a lot (not only waste money on Ducats on Chessbase Server or use CHessify server) to create high quality Chessable Courses.
Is there a difference in terms of quality of analysis (tactical accuracy of RTX 3080 TI to 4080 TI or 4090 TI ) does it make?"

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Ozymandias




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 1:21 pm

There are many nets being tested at Discord. Stephan also testes some of them.

In general, bigger nets give better results at LTC or analysis. Currently T80 is considered at the top, but the new and bigger BT2 nets seem to be doing even better against SF @ 2+2.

HW will only solve positions faster. Aa long as the card has enough memory to run the biggest nets, you're OK.

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Dio




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 6:54 pm

Hi Uri,

I would advise your friend to install the official version 0.29.0 (Cuda): https://github.com/LeelaChessZero/lc0/releases/tag/v0.29.0

This contains all the necessary files as well as an NN.

Lc0 can be installed as a normal UCI engine.
It is not necessary to change any parameters (except the TB path),
the parameters are already optimized.

Should Lc0 work, you can use a more recent and larger NN (like T80) https://training.lczero.org/networks/?show_all=0
into the folder of Lc0 (please do not unzip). The newer net will be detected automatically.

The mentioned "BT2 net" is not an official Lc0 net. It is also not executable with the official version of Lc0 0.29.0 (different structure).

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Uri Blass




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 8:52 pm

Thanks for the replies

He asked me the following:
"How does Chessify Leela zero stands in comparison to stronger nets ?
Does it outperform home computer 4090Rtx or not ?
What's it's relative strength ?"

In comparison

What's it's relative value in compt to attain your home PC with relevant hardware (please los bear in mind additional costs of a motherboard , processor .. raptor Lake 13390 k i9 cost 700$ in Asia etc cooling system
It's like 5000$ expense (in Asia Middle east) not USA

And how come don't other people or business offer superb Leela analysis to rent (except Chessbase servers or Chessify)


Last edited by Uri Blass on Tue Dec 27, 2022 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : more data)
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mwyoung

mwyoung


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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 9:04 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
I do not use lc0 but a friend asked me about the importance of Rtx4080 for lc0.
His plans are to buy Raptor Lake iG of new intel.

He claims that people who do not understand about cuda cannot find a good reply in google.

I asked in the talkchess.com forum but still did not get a reply so I ask also here.
I add another question that he asked me:

These are the best ners for lc0
https://lczero.org/dev/wiki/best-nets-for-lc0/

The question is how you define the best net and from what gpu

A RTX 4080 is not needed for Lc0, but it can not hurt. Any RTX will work just fine. or fast GPU card.  And gives you about the same strength.
It will not be a world changer using super fast GPU's with Lc0.

https://prodeo.actieforum.com/t899-lc0-0-28-2-vs-stockfish-060822-40-2hours-vs-3m2s-is-also-live

If you remember my 3m+2s SF vs Lc0 40 moves/2hour test.


Last edited by mwyoung on Tue Dec 27, 2022 9:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mwyoung

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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 9:12 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Thanks for the replies

He asked me the following:
"How does Chessify Leela zero stands in comparison to stronger nets ?
Does it outperform home computer 4090Rtx or not ?
What's it's relative strength ?"

In comparison

What's it's relative value in compt to attain your home PC with relevant hardware (please los bear in mind additional costs of a motherboard , processor .. raptor Lake 13390 k i9 cost 700$ in Asia etc cooling system
It's like 5000$ expense (in Asia  Middle east) not USA

And how come don't other people or business offer superb Leela analysis to rent (except Chessbase servers or Chessify)

DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY with chessify when using Lc0, or Stockfish. You are gaining almost nothing. I have done the test. But if you like to pay for empty NPS. Spend away. The NPS looks very impressive.

And the list from Lc0 of the best nets, are the best nets. For analysis use the biggest Lc0 net on that list.
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Dio




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 9:15 pm

I don't know Chessify Leela Null, this can only be a Lc0 bot with Lc0 without any search.

You don't need a graphics card for this, this bot should be accordingly weak, but sufficient to cause problems even for grandmasters (GM Matthew Sadler has tested this)... Lc0 is significantly stronger even on CPU.

With your friend's very powerful graphics card, Lc0 should be stronger than any grandmaster in the world, no matter what net or parameter settings...


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Uri Blass




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 9:18 pm

He sent me also a picture of Chessify Leela zero

I could not attach the picture but
I can see in the picture cpuct 1.745 latest 320x24 10 coins/minute
Stockfish15.1 server 110Mn/s


Note that he knows that stockfish is stronger and he is also using stockfish but want also to use lc0 for analysis.
He claims that stockfish is strongest but still lc0 has some advantages.

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mwyoung

mwyoung


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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 9:21 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
He sent me also a picture of Chessify Leela zero

I could not attach the picture but
I can see in the picture cpuct 1.745 latest 320x24 10 coins/minute
Stockfish15.1 server 110Mn/s


Note that he knows that stockfish is stronger and he is also using stockfish but want also to use lc0 for analysis.
He claims that stockfish is strongest but still lc0 has some advantages.

And your friend is correct. Lc0 can see and understand some positions much better then Stockfish. As the NN is just better in positional understanding.
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Dio




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 9:24 pm

cpuct is only a search parameter of Lc0. 10 n/s can also be achieved with the currently largest net of Lc0 (T78) on a normal CPU, without graphics card (1 thread).
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Sinemora




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 10:51 pm

Dear Chess Forum, nice to meet you all (I am Uri's friend and I've deiced to give him some slack and exempt him from doing this tiresome mediation about chess hardware questions).
I am a Fide Master (peak rating of 2360) currently slightly below 2300 Fide (2600 3 mins Lichess peak) currently 2550 blitz (only 3 mins) on Chess.com - This is my playing strength. Nevertheless, after a decade of quitting chess (taking some shots at poker but not anymore) in December 2020 I was back into Chess. I am currently writing a very intense powerful Chessable Course on the Petroff + Damiano (it's not published yet and also yet to be announced - I do wish it to be presented by GM and the right partnership hasn't been founded yet).
I do really care about the quality of analysis and I really delve into really high high depth and trying to make inspiring even for 2600-2700 Levels (I've been investing 5-6 months already about this theoretical investigation).
As for understanding about relevant and required Chess hardware my rating aspires to 1400-1500   utmost (maybe today 1650 - I know about Cpu and Gpu differences), but I am really perplexed about relevant Hardware considerations.
During my endless attempts to google these issues, I encountered dozen different opinions.
Two years (in view to a very bad advise of a good friend) I invested about 6000$ that went down the drain buying 3970X AMD that was not well installed (physically) on the motherboard in relation to cooling system (as should have been done by a decent Tech lab). As a result, I had many crashed (I guess to clocking over-heating or whatever ... many unexplained blue screen crashed also bad adjustment to Windows 10)
Whatever was the reason my old Gigabyte and 3970 X ripper were gone and I had to downgrade to 12990 Intel .
This is my current hardware :  Processor 12th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-12900K   3.20 GHz
Installed RAM 128 GB (128 GB usable)
System type 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
Pen and touch No pen or touch input is available for this display
I have MSI motherboard

I have water Cooling system and the following  ZALMAN 1200W ZM1200-EBT 80 PLUS GOLD POWER
Samsung ssd 980 Pro and nother that is not a pro.
As for GPU : I have  Intel UHD graphics 770 and Rtx 2080 Ti Nividia GetForce.

In reality this system isn't quiet enough (I have a big i guess professional Black large case) and I only use Leela 28.2.  My system does not handle running Stockfish 15.1 on Chessbase 17 for more than 2 minutes (and I had one blue screen crash - system ran out of power or limited power something notification so I use only external Chessbase Serve Ducats and currently I am considering to use Chessify.

Sometimes I work 5-6 hours a day running Stocfish burning many many many ducats (luckily I get them for half price from someone who sells in 50% discount).

I am pretty helpless in that sense...
My local country tech guy (or labs) don't really understand nothing about Chess and required Chess hardware.

I see so many different hardware opinion I cannot deny or confirm as for the perfect (relatively beneficial and effective) Chess technical specifications Home Pc (also decent PC in general to run fast smooth and quietly)


My question is why do some experts believe Chessify is presumptuous and does not offer real high-depth worthy analysis ?  What about Chessbase leading users providers such as : Rechenschieber , Clusterking, Superches_org , swe_cluster (256 core Stockfish) etc'

Obviously, it should be better than using a weak laptop 6 cpus or free Chess.com or Lichess (which only uses 14.1 Stockfish) for free analysis.
Therefore, my questions becomes what is the really really ideal Home PC for extensive Chess analysis ?

How should one build technical specifications (please bear in mind that my cost of constructing the desire chess is much higher than in the USA, because of import - like at least 15-20% higher than the USA)
In addition, I really do went  stable (not noisy) pc so I do wonder about the benefits of water cooling GPU (which makes it even more expensive)  https://www.gpumag.com/gpu-water-cooling/


For now, I won't invest this money to build the best possible home PC for higher-depth chess analysis.
When I share these deliberations with "Tech experts" who know nothing about Chess Software I guess answers that I might need QUadro GPU for AI by AMD  and also AIO cooling system   ... many many different answers ... more than 3 dozens opinions in each forum ..

I know a thing or 2 about Chess...  I can argue why Coaches who teach only 1.e4 are doing incredibly wrong nowadays ... why 1...e5 repertoire is a must at the end of the day ... I can talk and argue about chess tendencies (the ".1e4" cult) and so on :-)   I can argue about the best Black repertoire as I see it in 2023 and so on

but unfortunately, I cannot conquer or deny any argue about related to Chess Hardware
How can I trust whose advice to choose and act accordingly ? :-(
p.s   (for my future PC - for now I don't have the budget and resources to purchase my dream PC)
I could try to help this forum in terms of Chess Theory , ideas and analysis from time to time.  I've been working a lot on theory in the past two years.


Last edited by Sinemora on Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sinemora




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 11:13 pm

One note from about the Strength of LeelaCzero.
Obviously in terms of total objective strength Stockfish has won the battle. However, for the aspiring Chess player (especially below 2100) Leela is super super important !
Stockfish (especially the latest 15.1 is simply so impressively tactically strong) that no human could ever become. My conclusion that Leela can offer very very original solutions (much more "intutiive" and easy to find) and what happens is the following : in 80-85 % of time Leela Evaluations turn out to be "more accurate" at first sight. What I mean by that is that Stockfish takes more more time and high-depth to lower his advantage and actually agree with "Leela" First instincts ...I've been witnessing this tendency over and over again. Sometimes Leela misevaluate tactical shots and king safety and her line is refuted, but in the vast vast majority of the cases, Stockfish corrects his evaluation to Leela's first seconds evaluation. This tendency is quite amazing and it what makes Leela so so important for a human player (especially lower rated club level player) who simply cannot never reach to capacity to justify or understand Stockfish brute force solutions. It's not about positional, but about practicality ! Leela is much much practical than stockfish even in complicated positions - This is why it is so so important tool loved by higher rated players...
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Ozymandias




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 11:20 pm

Sinemora wrote:
Obviously, it should be better than using a weak laptop 6 cpus

Don't count on it. Engines are very strong and, more important, very fast. What you find in a minute won't be refuted in an hour.

Ten years ago it was still important to have fast HW, but relatively. Even then I performed
better alone, with a few quads, than the group including Anson, David and company, each one of them with multiple CPU servers at their disposal. It's not just a question of HW, but of how you use it.

You may be thinking that analysis is different from centaur play, but correspondence chess has also shown me that the same reasoning applies.

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Sinemora




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 11:34 pm

Ozymandias wrote:
Sinemora wrote:
Obviously, it should be better than using a weak laptop 6 cpus

Don't count on it. Engines are very strong and, more important, very fast. What you find in a minute won't be refuted in an hour.

Ten years ago it was still important to have fast HW, but relatively. Even then I performed
better alone, with a few quads, than the group including Anson, David and company, each one of them with multiple CPU servers at their disposal. It's not just a question of HW, but of how you use it.

You may be thinking that analysis is different from centaur play, but correspondence chess has also shown me that the same reasoning applies.


My knowledge is insufficient to judge what you say.
However, I can confirm the following:  Stockfish with less Mns/sec usually gives  bigger gaps in evaluations (in almost equal positions) and it takes it more time to adjust its evaluation (from 0.48-58 to the range of 0.17 0.12 practical equality) than higher MNs Stockfish that usually is much closer in terms of evaluations gaps and it usually (within the first seconds already) less annoyed or deterred from a sacrificed pawn (with compensation of course) than Stockfish with less Mns  (and not only when it comes to sacrificed pawns) - i could tell you that I've been investing months already in the 6...bd6 Petroff (Nepo Caruana)  1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.N:e5 d6 4.Nf3 N:e4 5.d4 d5 6.Bd3 Bd6 7.0-0 -0-0 8.c4 .c6  Tabiya (all 9.Re1 with 10.Qb3 or 9.Nc3 , 9.c:d5 9.Qc2 etc etc' ... ) Covering all Corr. Games, Chessable Courses and available sources for me...    I see big leaps and differences in evaluation from Stockfish with less Mns like 60-90 to Stocfish with 160 to 300+ Mns   (Leela is always more optimistic in nature :-))
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Ozymandias




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyTue Dec 27, 2022 11:39 pm

Evaluation aside, does the move suggested change the result of the game?

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Sinemora




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyWed Dec 28, 2022 12:11 am

mwyoung wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Thanks for the replies

He asked me the following:
"How does Chessify Leela zero stands in comparison to stronger nets ?
Does it outperform home computer 4090Rtx or not ?
What's it's relative strength ?"

In comparison

What's it's relative value in compt to attain your home PC with relevant hardware (please los bear in mind additional costs of a motherboard , processor .. raptor Lake 13390 k i9 cost 700$ in Asia etc cooling system
It's like 5000$ expense (in Asia  Middle east) not USA

And how come don't other people or business offer superb Leela analysis to rent (except Chessbase servers or Chessify)

DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY with chessify when using Lc0, or Stockfish. You are gaining almost nothing. I have done the test. But if you like to pay for empty NPS. Spend away. The NPS looks very impressive.

And the list from Lc0 of the best nets, are the best nets. For analysis use the biggest Lc0 net on that list.


Can you please exaplain your reply in greater details ?
Any given my current limited Cpu (problems or running Stockfish for two long ... crushing and noise) why are serves limited or provide bad solution ? What does inflated NPs mean ?
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Sinemora




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyWed Dec 28, 2022 12:14 am

Ozymandias wrote:
Evaluation aside, does the move suggested change the result of the game?


Well...  I don't do tests and matches (I rely on evaluations and my limited chess understanding)
However, I do have sense of practicality and I also consult a friend GM sometimes...
Don't forget that evaluations are important for humans... (not the number) but the seemingly complexity of the position...
Position that can be defend by a thread (with series of only moves) isn't considered too practical even if the result will be a draw between too engines ...
Result between 3400-3800 Chess Entities do not matter to humans' Chess after all, so it's not the only factor.

However,  playability, ability to digest and remember the suggestion lines variation and subvariations is very import ! (play a big role)
My biggest problem is that my very long high-depth analysis at times cannot be condensed into Chessable format for example (their Learning Tools will require very long memorization) at the end I will have to compromise a bit about the length and the quality of analysis but I don't compromise (too often) about playability and practicality for humans players when possible (sometimes we do have apply ideas and less harmonious moves because this is the nature of the line and what the position requires)
For example, in the 9.Re1 Bf5 10.Qb3 Black has to play 10...Qd7...  for clear equality you cannot go around it. Even for 2300 player it is a really difficult concept to apply and feel comfortable
Take Rapport-Nepo (Candiddates 2022) ... Nepo is a tactical genius if you look at his prep against Repport's 9.Qb3 in this 6...Bd6 Petroff, you will see that 9...Bg4 is much more complex to understand and implement correctly at higher-depth than 9...d:c4 eve if the engines prefer 9...Bg4 (give 0.05 evaluation to 0.20-25 to 9...d:c4) I will insist of 9...d:c4 because people already have many other complicated lines and subvariations to remember so it would be less practical to them to add more tasks to the "limited human memory lane"
The point is that results between two mighty machines isn't the only factor!
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mwyoung

mwyoung


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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyWed Dec 28, 2022 1:06 am

Hello Sinemora,

Everything you posted and what you do with the computer. I also do that for myself, and my Youtube chess testing channel. The only thing different is that I run almost 24 hours a day, 7 days a week at full loading on my computer system. And sometimes for weeks on a broadcast with no downtime.

When I build a computer for chess engine testing and I also needed 100% stability. You must make cooling the first design feature of your computer system. Most prebuilt system do not care about cooling. And needing to run at full load on a CPU and GPU with no thermal slowing, or stability issues for days at a time.

That means at minimum a high end AIO, or full water cooling, and a high air flow case that can support one 120mm fan for every 100 watts your system can draw. This allows the system to run cool, and quietly, and stable. And with no thermal throttling.  

For the CPU choice and running Stockfish.  You want the fastest CPU cores as possible, then concern yourself with how many cores. 8, 16, 32....

A faster 8 core system, can be faster then a 16, or 32 core system with slower CPU cores. Depending on the speed of each CPU core.

And do not be fooled by looking at the NPS display of the chess engine. That is not how you measure the speed of your chess computer. That is like looking at your cars tachometer. To judge how fast your car is moving.

You judge the computers chess speed by looking at time to depth. Stockfish has a built in benchmark command. And you can use this to judge a computers true speed by looking at the completion time of the benchmark test. The NPS displayed in the test is irrelevant.

"My question is why do some experts believe Chessify is presumptuous and does not offer real high-depth worthy analysis? "

For the reasons i stated above. To see what kind of real benefit Chessify or Chessbase is giving you. And if it is worth the money. Just do a time to depth test between Chessify, and your system. And really see how much faster is Chessify.

For my computer system, and Chessify. Chessify is a total waste of money.


Following my chess computer build recommendations. Your system should look similar to this, but with your chosen hardware.

questions about lc0 Comp_p10

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Sinemora




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyWed Dec 28, 2022 1:55 am

mwyoung wrote:
Hello Sinemora,

Everything you posted and what you do with the computer. I also do that for myself, and my Youtube chess testing channel. The only thing different is that I run almost 24 hours a day, 7 days a week at full loading on my computer system. And sometimes for weeks on a broadcast with no downtime.

When I build a computer for chess engine testing and I also needed 100% stability. You must make cooling the first design feature of your computer system. Most prebuilt system do not care about cooling. And needing to run at full load on a CPU and GPU with no thermal slowing, or stability issues for days at a time.

That means at minimum a high end AIO, or full water cooling, and a high air flow case that can support one 120mm fan for every 100 watts your system can draw. This allows the system to run cool, and quietly, and stable. And with no thermal throttling.  

For the CPU choice and running Stockfish.  You want the fastest CPU cores as possible, then concern yourself with how many cores. 8, 16, 32....

A faster 8 core system, can be faster then a 16, or 32 core system with slower CPU cores. Depending on the speed of each CPU core.

And do not be fooled by looking at the NPS display of the chess engine. That is not how you measure the speed of your chess computer. That is like looking at your cars tachometer. To judge how fast your car is moving.

You judge the computers chess speed by looking at time to depth. Stockfish has a built in benchmark command. And you can use this to judge a computers true speed by looking at the completion time of the benchmark test. The NPS displayed in the test is irrelevant.

"My question is why do some experts believe Chessify is presumptuous and does not offer real high-depth worthy analysis? "

For the reasons i stated above. To see what kind of real benefit Chessify or Chessbase is giving you. And if it is worth the money. Just do a time to depth test between Chessify, and your system. And really see how much faster is Chessify.

For my computer system, and Chessify. Chessify is a total waste of money.


Following my chess computer build recommendations. Your system should look similar to this, but with your chosen hardware.

questions about lc0 Comp_p10



Can you please provide a step by step guide to this Benchmark test for Stockfish ? (Do not assume I understand nothing and don't skip any step please :-)

Can you please specify in detilas Which Black case (for the whole Pc)
Specify the AIO coolers    - your own processer ? (is it AMD is it Intel does it evert crash if it's not intel etc')  
I want the very specifics of the Technical Specifications of building such a comp!    so I could choose them and see how much it costs  -your recommend power supplier for this aio cooling   every piece of hardware

Thanks for the time to respond to my "beginner' questions"

What is your youtube channel if you want to share ?
I will subscribe
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mwyoung

mwyoung


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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyWed Dec 28, 2022 3:29 am

https://pcpartpicker.com/

Use this link to build the PC, see if the parts you want will work together, and get the cost of the build, and what size power supply you will need. and links to buy the PC Parts at the cheapest price.

Do not be bound by my build, use PC part picker for your budget, and specs needed for that budget.  

My configuration of my PC.

CPU: AMD Threadripper
GPU: Nvidia RTX 2080ti by MSI
Motherboard: Asus - Stick to this brand of motherboard.
Ram: 64 GB Corsair
SSD: 2TB m.2 Samsung 970 plus.
AIO; Enermax for Threadripper.
Case: Lian Li - Der Bauer High air flow over clocking case.
Fans: 6 Corsair 120mm high air flow, high static pressure fans.
Power supply: 1000 watt gold rated power supply by Corsair.


Stockfish benchmark.

Double Click on the stockfish exe in the folder to generate a dos box.

Type bench (hash) (cpu cores aka threads) (depth of search for the test position)

like this.

bench 1024 4 25

Press enter key.

This will benchmark with 1 GB of hash, using 4 cores, with a search depth of 25.

Be consistent with your search depth. I mostly use a depth of 35 to 40. But the higher the depth the longer the benchmark will take to run. But if your testing for true speed, you want a longer test to get the CPU running as hot as possible. So you can check the speed of your system like when you are doing a long analysis of a position.

Now you can compare a computer's system completion time for different computers with the benchmark time, or the same computers with different hash, and cpu cores when running Stockfish. But just keep the depth consistent when comparing completion times. Completion time of the benchmark is in milliseconds.

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Ozymandias




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyWed Dec 28, 2022 7:41 am

Sinemora wrote:
The point is that results between two mighty machines isn't the only factor!

I understand your point, but keep in mind that evaluation isn't tuned in itself. Engines aren't developed and tested based on analysis of positions, but on the result of games. Any modification will be accepted or rejected based on that, a non-fluctuating evaluation is the byproduct of this process, not the goal. And then, even if you had 100% stable evaluations, that would be like looking at the result in advance, so you actually want the eval to fluctuate, not stabilize, to figure out the complexity of the position. In essence, the weaker the computer (engine) you get, the better. Boban could tell you something about this. Boban?

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Ozymandias




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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyWed Dec 28, 2022 7:44 am

mwyoung wrote:
sometimes for weeks on a broadcast with no downtime

Small potatoes. When the electricity price wasn't trough the roof, I had my six computers playing games from October all the way trough May. They provided the only heating in the living room.

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mwyoung

mwyoung


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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyWed Dec 28, 2022 11:23 am

Sinemora wrote:
One note from about the Strength of LeelaCzero.
Obviously in terms of total objective strength Stockfish has won the battle. However, for the aspiring Chess player (especially below 2100) Leela is super super important !
Stockfish (especially the latest 15.1 is simply so impressively tactically strong) that no human could ever become. My conclusion that Leela can offer very very original solutions (much more "intutiive" and easy to find) and what happens is the following : in 80-85 % of time Leela Evaluations turn out to be "more accurate" at first sight. What I mean by that is that Stockfish takes more more time and high-depth to lower his advantage and actually agree with "Leela" First instincts ...I've been witnessing this tendency over and over again. Sometimes Leela misevaluate tactical shots and king safety and her line is refuted, but in the vast vast majority of the cases, Stockfish corrects his evaluation to Leela's first seconds evaluation. This tendency is quite amazing and it what makes Leela so so important for a human player (especially lower rated club level player) who simply cannot never reach to capacity to justify or understand Stockfish brute force solutions.  It's not about positional, but about practicality !   Leela is much much practical than stockfish even in complicated positions - This is why it is so so important tool loved by higher rated players...  

You are correct about Lc0. The reasons for this is 2 fold.

1. Lc0 neural net is better in terms of chess understanding.

2. Lc0 is using a modified Monte-Carlo Tree Search. in essence meaning Lc0 is never trying to find
objectively the best move, but the move and positions that progresses the game with the best statistical chance
of progressing the game. This is Lc0 biggest strength positional understanding, but this sometimes results in missed
tactical shots.

This is because of the true nature of chess. Chess is not a positional game, instead chess is a 100% tactical game. Meaning all chess positions have to be
calculated out to see if any move is ultimately correct.


Last edited by mwyoung on Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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mwyoung

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PostSubject: Re: questions about lc0   questions about lc0 EmptyWed Dec 28, 2022 11:41 am

In your Chessable project. Make sure you are using as needed Chessbase 17 Deep Position analysis feature. This search can often correct mistakes in Stockfish's analysis. Finding correct moves and better evaluations. That Stockfish alone can not understand with just a long analysis search running for hours, or days alone.

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