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 Rebel, CS Tal

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PostSubject: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 5:42 pm

Are there any news regarding the development of Rebel or CS Tal ?

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 6:10 pm

Good question, I was wondering the same thing myself.. Computer Chess has been awfully quiet for more than a week..

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 7:00 pm

Tomorrow I am starting a GRL test run of a new version from Chris.

Me, I am building a new network with a new architecture (from Chris), it's currently +60 elo in selfplay, not sure what that means against other engines.

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 7:10 pm

very good news...

60 elo in selfplay should be enough for at least 30 to 40 elo against other engines.
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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 9:33 pm

Dio wrote:
very good news...

60 elo in selfplay should be enough for at least 30 to 40 elo against other engines.

That's an unfortunate fact indeed and seldom the other way around. But I have been diligent this time and also improved search Very Happy, not much 10-15 elo.

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 12:07 pm

Admin wrote:
Tomorrow I am starting a GRL test run of a new version from Chris.

Me, I am building a new network with a new architecture (from Chris), it's currently +60 elo in selfplay, not sure what that means against other engines.


So why no release of this version? +60 elo in selfplay definitly will give a nice progress in ratinglists, too. I would love doing testrun for my SPCC-ratinglist of a new version. But only, if it is released for everybody (I do not test private engines (like CEGT does (Stoofvlees-engine for example)) - one of my "golden rules"...).



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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 12:28 pm

pohl4711 wrote:
Admin wrote:
Tomorrow I am starting a GRL test run of a new version from Chris.

Me, I am building a new network with a new architecture (from Chris), it's currently +60 elo in selfplay, not sure what that means against other engines.


So why no release of this version? +60 elo in selfplay definitly will give a nice progress in ratinglists, too. I would love doing testrun for my SPCC-ratinglist of a new version. But only, if it is released for everybody (I do not test private engines (like CEGT does (Stoofvlees-engine for example)) - one of my "golden rules"...).

I will release when I am happy with a version, that means I need to polish the engine first. Steps,

1. Finish the net, will be ready today.
2. Include the search improvements in self-play and see how that goes.
3. Create an elo pool of engines compatible with the expected elo gain.
4. Test thoroughly on different time controls.
5. Release when happy.

Will probably take a week.

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 3:29 pm

Admin wrote:
Tomorrow I am starting a GRL test run of a new version from Chris.

Me, I am building a new network with a new architecture (from Chris), it's currently +60 elo in selfplay, not sure what that means against other engines.


Test run Chess System Tal 1.35

http://rebel13.nl/a/grl.htm

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 9:03 pm

a really very strong result of the new CSTal after 1400 games, I haven't given up hope yet that it will be freely available at some point Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 9:05 pm

Code:
No. Name                 Win Draw Loss Unf.  Score Games       %
----------------------------------------------------------------
  1 CSTal 1.35-V20-E520 +415 =840 -145   *0  835.0  1400   59.6%
  2 Koivisto 8.0         +35 =119  -46   *0   94.5   200   47.2%
  3 Komodo-Dragon 2      +33 =123  -44   *0   94.5   200   47.2%
  4 Berserk 8.5.1        +25 =131  -44   *0   90.5   200   45.2%
  5 Ethereal 13.50-NNUE  +19 =122  -59   *0   80.0   200   40.0%
  6 SlowChess 2.8         +7 =131  -62   *0   72.5   200   36.2%
  7 Seer 2.5.0           +10 =114  -76   *0   67.0   200   33.5%
  8 RubiChess 20220223   +16 =100  -84   *0   66.0   200   33.0%

CSTal_1.35-V20-E520
GRL elo rating : 3584
Previous : 3560
Elo gain : +24

Remarkable
Winning from Komodo Dragon 2
Passing Lc0 v28
Now third place

Bravo Chris!

Update web page soon.

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 9:37 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 9:51 pm

Impressive results, indeed! Congratulation to Chris! What's catch the eye is that CSTal beat ultrafast engines AND engines with very good evaluation NNs with similar results.

And I am much more optimistic than Ed concerning Rebel -- I trust that Rebel will make a relevant Elo jump just by eliminating the bugs in the search, and the NN improvements are all bonus (although much more difficult to achieve! I also believe that Rebel will revert to the style it had initially).

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptySat Jul 02, 2022 10:57 am

Ed, Chris,

How does the work on Rebel and CSTal progess?
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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptySat Jul 02, 2022 5:25 pm

matejst wrote:
Ed, Chris,

How does the work on Rebel and CSTal progess?

Interesting you should ask that. There will be a surprising announcement in next few days.

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptySat Jul 02, 2022 6:14 pm

Chris Whittington wrote:
matejst wrote:
Ed, Chris,

How does the work on Rebel and CSTal progess?

Interesting you should ask that. There will be a surprising announcement in next few days.

I just hope it will be a nice surprise. And... the sooner the better.

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptySat Jul 02, 2022 8:33 pm

matejst wrote:
Ed, Chris,

How does the work on Rebel and CSTal progess?

So we should expect to tune in to this Bat Channel at the same Bat Time!? Very Happy At least that is what I would expect! lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptySat Jul 02, 2022 8:57 pm

let's wait and be patient, I would also be happy to see the appearance of a new Rebel and especially CSTal, SF15 needs competition.... Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptySun Jul 03, 2022 4:48 pm

Waiting the announcement, and having some fun:

Rebel, CS Tal Slika11

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptySun Jul 03, 2022 5:08 pm

matejst wrote:
Waiting the announcement, and having some fun:

Rebel, CS Tal Slika11

When old, almost looks new again! sunny

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptySun Jul 03, 2022 5:43 pm

Nice color scheme.
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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptySun Jul 03, 2022 5:45 pm

Dio wrote:
let's wait and be patient, I would also be happy to see the appearance of a new Rebel and especially CSTal, SF15 needs competition.... Smile

Whoa! I have only SF12 and SF13 in my target engine test suite. SF15 is between 120 and 200 Elo away depending on rating list.

What’s interesting though, is how we thought SF10,11,12 were unassailable monsters, yet they’ve all fallen to the stronger amateurs. LC0 likewise (although I read there’s some recent search improvement). However, I have no idea what to do to get another 200 Elo. Keep plugging on and see what happens, I guess.

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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptySun Jul 03, 2022 6:01 pm

Despite some quirks with D-fend (memory), it looks very modern indeed. Lots of functionalities, good opening book, good bases, knowledge base, etc. In many aspects, at least equal and often superior to contemporary software.

In general, there are almost no software for serious work on chess today, ChessOK and Chessbase excepted. Since there is basically no competition, they simply stopped really improving their programs. I recently took advantage of the discounts at ChessOK to buy the new Aquarium and CA, and CA is practically the same as 20 years ago. It suits me, since I liked CA back then, but there are a lot of little things they could have improved.

Rebel for Windows, today more than ever, seems like a missed opportunity. I did not own Rebel 12, but I managed to buy Gandalf with the CP interface (buying chess software in the nineties and at the beginning of the millennium was almost impossible here, I had to beg my French cousins to do it for me, but it was tricky) -- and boy it was ugly! and buggy! The only good thing was the possibility to use several books at the same time.

Then, a savoir faire has been lost. I follow Pam's work at CCC, but he simply does not have a clue how to make an uncluttered and functional GUI. BSG is way better now, but it is borderline unusable still. Open source software is OK, but it leads very often to an end of diversity.

Since they really never developed new, revolutionary concepts, the SF team generally slowed down the development of new engines, and moreover, they never attempted to create a new GUI.  They take the beaten path, and the beaten path always ends in a dead end.  Their results are very meager for the means they have employed.  Without SF, today we would have a dozen commercial engines, several GUIs, and we might have lost a hundred Elos in strength, which is insignificant.
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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptySun Jul 03, 2022 6:03 pm

Admin wrote:
Nice color scheme.

Thanks, Ed, although I am almost color blind.
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PostSubject: Re: Rebel, CS Tal   Rebel, CS Tal EmptySun Jul 03, 2022 6:22 pm

Chris Whittington wrote:
Dio wrote:
let's wait and be patient, I would also be happy to see the appearance of a new Rebel and especially CSTal, SF15 needs competition.... Smile

Whoa! I have only SF12 and SF13 in my target engine test suite. SF15 is between 120 and 200 Elo away depending on rating list.

What’s interesting though, is how we thought SF10,11,12 were unassailable monsters, yet they’ve all fallen to the stronger amateurs. LC0 likewise (although I read there’s some recent search improvement). However, I have no idea what to do to get another 200 Elo. Keep plugging on and see what happens, I guess.

I guess it is mostly the search. When you have a look at the SSDF rating list, you have:

1 Lc0 0.28.2 Cuda-611213 3060Ti       3591   48   -43   280   71%  3438
2 Stockfish 13 x64                            3577   37   -34   440   70%  3426
3 Lc0 0.26.3 Cuda(67362) 3060Ti        3572   29   -27   680   68%  3442
4 Dragon Komodo 2.51 x64                 3566   42   -39   320   65%  3456
5 Stockfish 14 x64                            3555   39   -37   360   66%  3444
6 Stockfish 12 NNUE x64                    3555   30   -29   560   62%  3465

which means that, for serious work, the difference between SF 12-14, Dragon, Lc0 is irrelevant, and the difference with other engines is not really important either. The search gives most Elos in bullet and blitz. Since I use engines mostly for analysis, in my experience I don't need SF. It is faster, true, but that's mostly all.
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