Posts : 2608 Join date : 2020-11-17 Location : Netherlands
Subject: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:33 pm
9/18/2001 – The story is not going away, in fact it is gaining momentum. Many people believe that Bobby Fischer has returned and is performing miracles on the Internet. Nigel Short said he was "99 per cent sure" he has had played Fischer. Tim Krabbé, who was initially skeptical, has now seen the light. We have taken another closer look at the evidence .... https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-third-coming-of-bobby-fischer-
Today I got this email and immediately was interested, welcome Jay if you are reading this.
Message: To whom it may concern,
I am a computer science student and writer, covering oddities from the history of the internet. Currently I am covering a case which involves a set of Chess games between the GrandMasters Nigel Short (Ural) and supposedly Bobby Fischer (Guest 2563) on the Internet Chess Club in 2000.
I am writing to you, as from my understanding you seem to be somewhat of experts within the field in question. Due to this I am seeking advice. These games between Nigel Short and an online player who is believed by some to be Bobby Fischer in 2000 are interesting to say the least. They had been - sort of - discredited by Bobby Fischer, ie he said he never played chess online. However the myth still lives on, that hey may have played these games.
I am seeking advice on if you can check, or how I can check if these sequence of moves would have been made by a Chess bot from the era. For example Fritz, Shredder, and Chess Tiger or your own Rebel. Currently after approximately move 5 in each game the player pretending to be Fischer may have started using a chessbot. If you wish to discuss further and provide advice it would be greatly appreciated.
If you wish to see the games in question, match 26 is the most well known between Nigel Short (Ural) and supposedly Bobby Fischer (Guest 2563):
Can some of you test other engines, Hiarcs, Junior, Shredder, Rebel Century UCI etc.
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:49 pm
IMO it was somebody who claimed he is fischer, he used a chess engine. Obviously fritz or whatever engine.
Fischer would not have played NORMAL chess but only fischer random chess.
Admin Admin
Posts : 2608 Join date : 2020-11-17 Location : Netherlands
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:53 pm
I think the whole thing smells, maybe it's even an April 1 prank from Chessbase, they have a history
Code:
Fritz 5.32 58% similarity with Fischer ProDeo 3.0 55% Stockfish 11 51% Komodo 14 52%
Of course the real similarity is much higher due to first 5-6 moves of each of the 7 games.
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:01 pm
Admin wrote:
I think the whole thing smells, maybe it's even an April 1 prank from Chessbase, they have a history
Code:
Fritz 5.32 58% similarity with Fischer ProDeo 3.0 55% Stockfish 11 51% Komodo 14 52%
Of course the real similarity is much higher due to first 5-6 moves of each of the 7 games.
I do not believe it. That it was Bobby Fischer. But I can analyze the games with centipawn analysis. As it is mainly a cheat detection tool. And see if the games smell.
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:00 am
mwyoung wrote:
Admin wrote:
I think the whole thing smells, maybe it's even an April 1 prank from Chessbase, they have a history
Code:
Fritz 5.32 58% similarity with Fischer ProDeo 3.0 55% Stockfish 11 51% Komodo 14 52%
Of course the real similarity is much higher due to first 5-6 moves of each of the 7 games.
I do not believe it. That it was Bobby Fischer. But I can analyze the games with centipawn analysis. As it is mainly a cheat detection tool. And see if the games smell.
Here is what the analysis shows. GM Short played poorly for a GM of his caliber. The person thought to be GM Fischer played OK for a GM playing Blitz.
Here is a baseline for comparison. GM Nakamara playing online blitz chess in Titled Tuesday 20 game average. And GM Kasparov playing blitz chess in 2003. A 4 game average.
Conclusion. The game were most likely played by a GM caliber player. The GM Caliber player played far below the best GM player's of today. And GM Kasparov in 2003.
Is GM Fischer playing....Who knows.
Admin Admin
Posts : 2608 Join date : 2020-11-17 Location : Netherlands
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:41 am
New approach, removed the first 5-6 silly moves from each game for a correct similarity percentage. The new number of positions is now 217.
Code:
Alledged similarity with Fischer Fritz 5.32 68.6% 149/217 Chess Tiger 13 71.4% 155/217 Gambit Tiger 72.3% 157/217
Admin Admin
Posts : 2608 Join date : 2020-11-17 Location : Netherlands
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:32 am
Code:
Alledged similarity with Fischer Fritz 5.32 68.6% 149/217 Chess Tiger 13 71.4% 155/217 Gambit Tiger 72.3% 157/217
Final check, can the 3 engines produce the same high similarity when they are fed with moves Fischer really played? For this purpose I created the moves Fischer played in 1972 against Spassky, 896 moves in total.
Code:
REAL similarity with Fischer Fritz 5.32 48.5% 435/896 Chess Tiger 13 48.7% 437/896 Gambit Tiger 50.6% 454/896
Still in the dark
Last edited by Admin on Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total
Admin Admin
Posts : 2608 Join date : 2020-11-17 Location : Netherlands
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:15 am
mwyoung wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
Admin wrote:
I think the whole thing smells, maybe it's even an April 1 prank from Chessbase, they have a history
Code:
Fritz 5.32 58% similarity with Fischer ProDeo 3.0 55% Stockfish 11 51% Komodo 14 52%
Of course the real similarity is much higher due to first 5-6 moves of each of the 7 games.
I do not believe it. That it was Bobby Fischer. But I can analyze the games with centipawn analysis. As it is mainly a cheat detection tool. And see if the games smell.
Here is what the analysis shows. GM Short played poorly for a GM of his caliber. The person thought to be GM Fischer played OK for a GM playing Blitz.
Consider that Nigel had to enter moves with the mouse (only 3 minutes for the game) while a computer opponent moves instantly on ICC.
Here is a baseline for comparison. GM Nakamara playing online blitz chess in Titled Tuesday 20 game average. And GM Kasparov playing blitz chess in 2003. A 4 game average.
Conclusion. The game were most likely played by a GM caliber player. The GM Caliber player played far below the best GM player's of today. And GM Kasparov in 2003.
Is GM Fischer playing....Who knows.
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:30 am
Admin wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
Admin wrote:
I think the whole thing smells, maybe it's even an April 1 prank from Chessbase, they have a history
Code:
Fritz 5.32 58% similarity with Fischer ProDeo 3.0 55% Stockfish 11 51% Komodo 14 52%
Of course the real similarity is much higher due to first 5-6 moves of each of the 7 games.
I do not believe it. That it was Bobby Fischer. But I can analyze the games with centipawn analysis. As it is mainly a cheat detection tool. And see if the games smell.
Here is what the analysis shows. GM Short played poorly for a GM of his caliber. The person thought to be GM Fischer played OK for a GM playing Blitz.
Consider that Nigel had to enter moves with the mouse (only 3 minutes for the game) while a computer opponent moves instantly on ICC.
Here is a baseline for comparison. GM Nakamara playing online blitz chess in Titled Tuesday 20 game average. And GM Kasparov playing blitz chess in 2003. A 4 game average.
Conclusion. The game were most likely played by a GM caliber player. The GM Caliber player played far below the best GM player's of today. And GM Kasparov in 2003.
Is GM Fischer playing....Who knows.
I did consider online games.
TheSelfImprover
Posts : 3112 Join date : 2020-11-18
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:09 pm
mwyoung wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
Admin wrote:
I think the whole thing smells, maybe it's even an April 1 prank from Chessbase, they have a history
Code:
Fritz 5.32 58% similarity with Fischer ProDeo 3.0 55% Stockfish 11 51% Komodo 14 52%
Of course the real similarity is much higher due to first 5-6 moves of each of the 7 games.
I do not believe it. That it was Bobby Fischer. But I can analyze the games with centipawn analysis. As it is mainly a cheat detection tool. And see if the games smell.
Here is what the analysis shows. GM Short played poorly for a GM of his caliber. The person thought to be GM Fischer played OK for a GM playing Blitz.
Here is a baseline for comparison. GM Nakamara playing online blitz chess in Titled Tuesday 20 game average. And GM Kasparov playing blitz chess in 2003. A 4 game average.
Conclusion. The game were most likely played by a GM caliber player. The GM Caliber player played far below the best GM player's of today. And GM Kasparov in 2003.
Is GM Fischer playing....Who knows.
Let me double check what I think I've just read there:
* the mystery player is unlikely to be a computer
* the mystery player is likely to be a GM human
If the player is a GM human, then either it was Fischer, or a GM faked it. If a GM faked it, then for me, Short himself has to be high on the suspect list.
mwyoung likes this post
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:45 pm
Admin wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
Admin wrote:
I think the whole thing smells, maybe it's even an April 1 prank from Chessbase, they have a history
Code:
Fritz 5.32 58% similarity with Fischer ProDeo 3.0 55% Stockfish 11 51% Komodo 14 52%
Of course the real similarity is much higher due to first 5-6 moves of each of the 7 games.
I do not believe it. That it was Bobby Fischer. But I can analyze the games with centipawn analysis. As it is mainly a cheat detection tool. And see if the games smell.
Here is what the analysis shows. GM Short played poorly for a GM of his caliber. The person thought to be GM Fischer played OK for a GM playing Blitz.
Consider that Nigel had to enter moves with the mouse (only 3 minutes for the game) while a computer opponent moves instantly on ICC.
Here is a baseline for comparison. GM Nakamara playing online blitz chess in Titled Tuesday 20 game average. And GM Kasparov playing blitz chess in 2003. A 4 game average.
Conclusion. The game were most likely played by a GM caliber player. The GM Caliber player played far below the best GM player's of today. And GM Kasparov in 2003.
Is GM Fischer playing....Who knows.
Here is the latest results of only 3/0 online games from GM Nakamura and his opponents. Games were taken from Chess.com. GM Nakamura score, average=0.45 centipawn loss per move. At 3/0 blitz time controls.
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:09 pm
TheSelfImprover wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
Admin wrote:
I think the whole thing smells, maybe it's even an April 1 prank from Chessbase, they have a history
Code:
Fritz 5.32 58% similarity with Fischer ProDeo 3.0 55% Stockfish 11 51% Komodo 14 52%
Of course the real similarity is much higher due to first 5-6 moves of each of the 7 games.
I do not believe it. That it was Bobby Fischer. But I can analyze the games with centipawn analysis. As it is mainly a cheat detection tool. And see if the games smell.
Here is what the analysis shows. GM Short played poorly for a GM of his caliber. The person thought to be GM Fischer played OK for a GM playing Blitz.
Here is a baseline for comparison. GM Nakamara playing online blitz chess in Titled Tuesday 20 game average. And GM Kasparov playing blitz chess in 2003. A 4 game average.
Conclusion. The game were most likely played by a GM caliber player. The GM Caliber player played far below the best GM player's of today. And GM Kasparov in 2003.
Is GM Fischer playing....Who knows.
Let me double check what I think I've just read there:
* the mystery player is unlikely to be a computer
* the mystery player is likely to be a GM human
If the player is a GM human, then either it was Fischer, or a GM faked it. If a GM faked it, then for me, Short himself has to be high on the suspect list.
Even in 2003 and many years before this date. Home computer engines were far better at blitz then any human player. And with the scores I am seeing. Guest2563 played like a human player. And weaker then the very best GM players at blitz.
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:27 pm
Would GM Fischer play online chess in 2003? Most likely no!
Last edited by mwyoung on Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
Nezhman
Posts : 74 Join date : 2020-11-27
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:27 pm
Of course it was a human player - one who used computer engine assistance after he played the "opening" on his own.
I was originally tempted to believe it was Fischer, but going through the games with the engines I had at the time I could see that moves (too) consistently matched the engines' choices.
Mclane and TheSelfImprover like this post
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:40 pm
Fisher would not have played normal chess
TheSelfImprover
Posts : 3112 Join date : 2020-11-18
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:39 am
Mclane wrote:
Fisher would not have played normal chess
Good point - but not convincing for me: if Fischer had wanted to play GMs anonymously online, he would have had to have played standard chess.
TheSelfImprover
Posts : 3112 Join date : 2020-11-18
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:49 am
Nezhman wrote:
Of course it was a human player - one who used computer engine assistance after he played the "opening" on his own.
I was originally tempted to believe it was Fischer, but going through the games with the engines I had at the time I could see that moves (too) consistently matched the engines' choices.
Thank you. This is very helpful.
Chess server engine detection would presumably check for an absence of blunders at, say, ply 5. Maybe the prankster had the time control so low that such blunders did creep in? To beat computer cheating detection, a slow, knowledge based engine with very little time allowed would probably be a good choice: then you'd get clever moves with the odd blunder. Or maybe the prankster had a method of picking the odd bad move that wasn't so bad as to turn a winning position into a drawing one.
The prankster deserves credit: 20 years on, it's time for them to admit what they did - like the people who worked out how to make crop circles did (I once saw one being made while I was riding a horse through a field).
Nezhman
Posts : 74 Join date : 2020-11-27
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:17 am
Since the prankster/cheater was playing as a guest it didn't really matter that he was cheating, since they don't normally crack down on guests who can only play unrated games anyway.
TheSelfImprover likes this post
Ringed
Posts : 2 Join date : 2021-03-31
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:30 pm
Hello this is Jay,
All of your analysis is very strong and must be commended, and currently your Quantitative analysis is very strong and proving to be a great help. We may never know exactly who did it, however It can be safely said that Fischer did not play these games not only due to the results of these analysis but there are also a number of strong historical pointers which have seem to of been lost to time as they do not support the popular 'media theory'. Once all points are compiled I will update you all here.
As for the centipawn analysis I am inspecting the efficacy of its applicability to this unique case and will return with an update in the near future.
Admin likes this post
Prometheus
Posts : 5 Join date : 2021-02-19 Age : 65 Location : Earth
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:22 am
On the plus side, Arne Kaehler speaks excellent English and deserves credit for that - but he claims to be a strong player, so why would he even look at a move as ridiculous as Nh3 in this position (link)?
In the words of the proverb, "the knight on the rim is apt to be dim". It's just wasting time and keeping the knight away from the centre.
Chessbase are scraping the barrel showing analysis at this level.
I feel we need to raise the intelligence level after that, so, going off topic slightly, here's a great new take on nofap:
Ringed
Posts : 2 Join date : 2021-03-31
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:59 pm
Frederic 4/1/2021 08:54 @Werewolf. I said it was a Canadian sysop posing as Fischer. Nigel was playing a Fritz engine.
Apparently I convinced Frederic because I shared my results in this thread with him a couple of days ago.
hihi
Yea I just read the thread this is interesting, and seems to be produced at just the right time. The reality is - Nigel Short himself has denied it was Fischer on multiple occasions at this stage, the more I dig and search the more I find on the topic. Most recently Nigel short was on stream denying it.
TheSelfImprover
Posts : 3112 Join date : 2020-11-18
Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth? Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:21 pm
There's an even bigger bit of faking going on than these few games: Bobby Fischer wasn't actually real - he was a character played by Leonard Nimoy.
Hmmm... perhaps this should have gone in the humour section...
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Subject: Re: The Fischer - Short games, real or myth?
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