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 CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)

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mwyoung

mwyoung

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PostSubject: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyTue Sep 14, 2021 2:39 am

CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)

Hardware Threadripper 2950x, RTX 2080  64 Gb Ram, SSD 2 TB Evo 970 Plus.

Book Perfect book.
6 man table bases
TC = 1.5m +.75s
8 CPU
2 GB Hash
500 Rounds

Players

  1 Fat Fritz 2 (in SF) 8CPU      
  2 Lc0 0.28.0 610032 RTX2080    
  3 Stockfish 14 8CPU              
  4 Dragon by Komodo 2 8CPU          
  5 Lc0 0.28.0 t40-1541 RTX2080



Last edited by mwyoung on Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:26 pm; edited 3 times in total

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mwyoung

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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyTue Sep 14, 2021 3:32 am

I am not buying what CCRL is trying to sell me with the Lc0 0.28.0 t40-1541 results. The results shown were not rational. They were too good for that net and hardware. And why would CCRL not test with be best nets. But instead test with a very weak and obsolete net like t40-1541. I think I know why.

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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyTue Sep 14, 2021 1:13 pm

Will be interesting...

Current difference 120 elo Very Happy
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mwyoung

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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyTue Sep 14, 2021 10:20 pm

Admin wrote:
Will be interesting...

Current difference 120 elo Very Happy

Code:
Rank Name                          Elo     +/-   Games    Wins  Losses   Draws   Points   Score    Draw
   1 Fat Fritz 2 (in SF) 8CPU       66      29     112      23       2      87     66.5   59.4%   77.7%
   2 Stockfish 14 8CPU              34      21     112      12       1      99     61.5   54.9%   88.4%
   3 Lc0 0.28.0 610032 RTX2080      25      22     112      11       3      98     60.0   53.6%   87.5%
   4 Dragon by Komodo 2 8CPU       -12      30     112      10      14      88     54.0   48.2%   78.6%
   5 Lc0 0.28.0 t40-1541 RTX2080    -116      34     112       0      36      76     38.0   33.9%   67.9%

280 of 5000 games finished.

And it is becoming fascinating as more games are played.... And as our testing predicted Lc0 is ahead of Dragon 2. If using a modern net to test Lc0 and not the obsolete T40-1541. And Dragon 2 is just getting killed with CCRL testing standards.

Here is one thing I can say with 100% certainty. There is no way the neural net for Lc0 T40-1541 achieved a CCRL rating of "#4 Lc0 0.28.0 t40-1541 RTX2080 3669" This rating is total bull shit.

CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) 2uia5210


Last edited by mwyoung on Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyWed Sep 15, 2021 3:52 pm

Mark, I am running also a sanity check with 256x20-t40-1541.pb, size 44.289.015 bytes.

Is that the same net you are using?

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Dio



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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyWed Sep 15, 2021 7:03 pm

in the old spcc-list (Stefan Pohl) T40-1541 (2583 Elo) is weaker than LS 15 (2643 Elo), both are 256x20, in the current spcc-list T75 is 19 Elo stronger than LS 15. https://www.sp-cc.de/nn-vs-sf-testing.htm, old results here: https://www.sp-cc.de/files/old_nn_rating.txt


Last edited by Dio on Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyWed Sep 15, 2021 7:09 pm

I will play 2 sanity matches.

Lc0-v28 for the GRL won with 102 - 98 against Komodo-Dragon 2

Match-1 : Lc0 T40-1541 vs Komodo-Dragon 2
Match-2 : Lc0 default net vs Komodo-Dragon 2

Will show some light on the issue, also for me.

Matches running here - http://rebel13.nl/a/grl.htm

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mwyoung

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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyWed Sep 15, 2021 8:33 pm

Admin wrote:
Mark, I am running also a sanity check with 256x20-t40-1541.pb, size 44.289.015 bytes.

Is that the same net you are using?

My size is 53,700 KB.

Either I have the wrong net, or you do. I grabbed mine off of Lc0. T40, and the 1541 iteration of the net.
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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyWed Sep 15, 2021 8:43 pm

It is clearly the same net, I have checked it, the changed size only results after "unpacking" this net, however, this is not recommended and is not necessary...
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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyWed Sep 15, 2021 8:55 pm

Admin wrote:
I will play 2 sanity matches.

Lc0-v28 for the GRL won with 102 - 98 against Komodo-Dragon 2

Match-1 : Lc0 T40-1541 vs Komodo-Dragon 2
Match-2 : Lc0 default net vs Komodo-Dragon 2

Will show some light on the issue, also for me.

Matches running here - http://rebel13.nl/a/grl.htm

What is your hardware used for the test. I am testing Dragon 2 with 8 CPU vs RTX 2080. At CCRL blitz standard settings. So the TC is 2m+1s is really 1.5m + .75s for my CPU. To equal ("Time control: From Jan 2020, equivalent to 2'+1" on an Intel i7-4770K. See the "about" page.")
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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyWed Sep 15, 2021 9:26 pm

The hardware of this test should actually be completely irrelevant, it is about the comparison of the respective networks.
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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyWed Sep 15, 2021 10:04 pm

Dio wrote:
It is clearly the same net, I have checked it, the changed size only results after "unpacking" this net, however, this is not recommended and is not necessary...

Thanks, and this NN came "unpacked" off of the Lc0 download.
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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyWed Sep 15, 2021 10:11 pm

Dio wrote:
The hardware of this test should actually be completely irrelevant, it is about the comparison of the respective networks.

I was interested in how many threads Ed gave D2. I was assuming 1, but it was not clear. And what GPU.

It is always relevant with Lc0 since it is a GPU vs CPU.


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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyWed Sep 15, 2021 10:20 pm

Current standings.

Code:
Rank Name                          Elo     +/-   Games    Wins  Losses   Draws   Points   Score    Draw
   1 Stockfish 14 8CPU              60      17     244      43       1     200    143.0   58.6%   82.0%
   2 Fat Fritz 2 (in SF) 8CPU       58      18     243      43       3     197    141.5   58.2%   81.1%
   3 Lc0 0.28.0 610032 RTX2080      24      16     244      25       8     211    130.5   53.5%   86.5%
   4 Dragon by Komodo 2 8CPU       -20      20     243      18      32     193    114.5   47.1%   79.4%
   5 Lc0 0.28.0 t40-1541 RTX2080    -126      24     244       1      86     157     79.5   32.6%   64.3%

609 of 5000 games finished.

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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyWed Sep 15, 2021 10:45 pm

Admin wrote:
Will be interesting...

Current difference 120 elo Very Happy

Current Elo difference is now 150 Elo!. I smell a Rat.

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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyThu Sep 16, 2021 12:18 am

mwyoung wrote:
Admin wrote:
Mark, I am running also a sanity check with 256x20-t40-1541.pb, size 44.289.015 bytes.

Is that the same net you are using?

My size is 53,700 KB.

Either I have the wrong net, or you do. I grabbed mine off of Lc0. T40, and the 1541 iteration of the net.

I got mine from : https://lczero.org/dev/wiki/best-nets-for-lc0/

Apparently there are more than one affraid
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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyThu Sep 16, 2021 12:20 am

mwyoung wrote:
Dio wrote:
The hardware of this test should actually be completely irrelevant, it is about the comparison of the respective networks.

I was interested in how many threads Ed gave D2. I was assuming 1, but it was not clear. And what GPU.

It is always relevant with Lc0 since it is a GPU vs CPU.

GPU 1060, Dragon on one core. I am just replaying a previous match, same conditions.

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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyThu Sep 16, 2021 12:23 am

mwyoung wrote:
Admin wrote:
Will be interesting...

Current difference 120 elo Very Happy

Current Elo difference is now 150 Elo!. I smell a Rat.

I am half way, -55 elo.

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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyThu Sep 16, 2021 1:14 am

This was sent to me on my channel. Is this true? CCRL will now test with the T75 nets. And if so why not the better T60.  CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) 1f42d

Arun Sathyamurthy
​@Mark Young They have now decided to go with default net T75
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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyThu Sep 16, 2021 7:46 am

Graham said they from now on will use the net that comes with the download. That's why I will run a second match with that net. Will be interesting.

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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyThu Sep 16, 2021 11:10 am

Admin wrote:
Graham said they from now on will use the net that comes with the download. That's why I will run a second match with that net. Will be interesting.


Rebel - "Alright, I regret that I involved Mark, he can't defend himself."

And you are fine for involving me in the discussion. This needed to be said, and they always attack me, but CCRL always makes changes for the better. As I am correct.

And yes I have told CCRL about the Lc0 testing issue before many times, and I was just ignored. It is not until I start running live tests. That CCRL decides to change their ways.

This is the CCRL pattern, and no different then this thread. http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=71149&hilit=obsolete

Attack me, say I am wrong, but then change the CCRL testing standard as I suggested.  lol!

Current results.

Code:
[Rank Name                          Elo     +/-   Games    Wins  Losses   Draws   Points   Score    Draw
   1 Stockfish 14 8CPU              58      15     315      53       1     261    183.5   58.3%   82.9%
   2 Fat Fritz 2 (in SF) 8CPU       54      16     314      53       5     256    181.0   57.6%   81.5%
   3 Lc0 0.28.0 610032 RTX2080      20      14     314      30      12     272    166.0   52.9%   86.6%
   4 Dragon by Komodo 2 8CPU       -13      17     313      24      36     253    150.5   48.1%   80.8%
   5 Lc0 0.28.0 t40-1541 RTX2080    -122      21     314       1     107     206    104.0   33.1%   65.6%

785 of 5000 games finished.
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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyThu Sep 16, 2021 4:24 pm

Result T40-1541

Code:
No. Name              Win Draw Loss Unf.  Score Games       %
-------------------------------------------------------------
  1 Komodo-Dragon 2   +58 =115  -27   *0  115.5   200   57.8%
  2 Lc0 v28-t40-1541  +27 =115  -58   *0   84.5   200   42.2%

Next the default net.
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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyYesterday at 9:27 pm

Current results.

Code:
Rank Name                          Elo     +/-   Games    Wins  Losses   Draws   Points   Score    Draw
   1 Stockfish 14 8CPU              61      12     510      90       2     418    299.0   58.6%   82.0%
   2 Fat Fritz 2 (in SF) 8CPU       47      12     508      78      10     420    288.0   56.7%   82.7%
   3 Lc0 0.28.0 610032 RTX2080      23      11     508      52      19     437    270.5   53.2%   86.0%
   4 Dragon by Komodo 2 8CPU       -13      13     509      41      60     408    245.0   48.1%   80.2%
   5 Lc0 0.28.0 t40-1541 RTX2080    -120      16     511       2     172     337    170.5   33.4%   65.9%

1273 of 5000 games finished.
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PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyYesterday at 9:56 pm

Admin wrote:
Result T40-1541

Code:
No. Name              Win Draw Loss Unf.  Score Games       %
-------------------------------------------------------------
  1 Komodo-Dragon 2   +58 =115  -27   *0  115.5   200   57.8%
  2 Lc0 v28-t40-1541  +27 =115  -58   *0   84.5   200   42.2%

Next the default net.

On September 3 I ran this test that had the Lc0 default net as one of the players. This was my results.

Code:
Hardware Threadripper 2950x, RTX 2080 TI, 64 Gb Ram, SSD 2 TB Evo 970 Plus.

Book Perfect Book 2021.
7 man table bases.
TC = 3m+2s.

Est. Run time for Tournament 6.94 Days.

Players
   1 Lc0 0.28.0 - J98-1-16 Net      
   2 Lc0 0.28.0 - 610025 Net        
   3 Lc0 0.28.0 - J94-100 Net      
   4 Lc0 0.28.0 - J92-300 Net      
   5 Lc0 0.28.0 - Default Net      
   6 Lc0 0.28.0 - CPU 16 Cores Default Net

Rank Name                          Elo     +/-   Games    Wins  Losses   Draws   Points   Score    Draw
   1 Lc0 0.28.0 - 610025 Net        47      17     200      28       1     171    113.5   56.8%   85.5%
   2 Lc0 0.28.0 - J94-100 Net       42      19     200      28       4     168    112.0   56.0%   84.0%
   3 Lc0 0.28.0 - J98-1-16 Net      38      17     200      25       3     172    111.0   55.5%   86.0%
   4 Lc0 0.28.0 - J92-300 Net       38      17     200      25       3     172    111.0   55.5%   86.0%
   5 Lc0 0.28.0 - Default Net       37      19     200      27       6     167    110.5   55.3%   83.5%
   6 Lc0 0.28.0 - CPU 16 Cores Default Net    -230      36     200       0     116      84     42.0   21.0%   42.0%

And just a side note. As you can see from this test, a RTX GPU gives Lc0 a huge jump in performance over 16 CPU's, and this is equal to a lower end GPU.
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CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) Empty
PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) EmptyToday at 12:25 am

Default net

Code:
No. Name             Win Draw Loss Unf.  Score Games       %
------------------------------------------------------------
  1 Komodo-Dragon 2  +53 =121  -26   *0  113.5   200   56.8%
  2 Lc0 v28-752187   +26 =121  -53   *0   86.5   200   43.2%

Not great either.
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CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) Empty
PostSubject: Re: CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions)   CCRL Sanity Check Tournament. CCRL Top 4 Blitz Engines + Lc0 0.28.0 610032 (CCRL Blitz Conditions) Empty

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