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 My first NNUE

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TheSelfImprover
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PostSubject: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyWed Dec 08, 2021 2:38 pm

Created my first net from roughly 800,00 Benjamin 1.1 games resulting in 500 million positions. With the help of Chris I was able to create a first Benjamin net and played a 10 game match in Arena using a 3200 elo rated host engine to test the net. Match ended in 5-5, not bad at all for a first try. Two games.

[pgn]
[Event "EPOCH-1"]
[Site "Deventer"]
[Date "2021.12.08"]
[White "Engine_X_Benjamin_NNUE"]
[Black "Engine_X_orginal_NNUE"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2200"]
[ECO "A01"]
[Opening "Nimzowitsch-Larsen Attack"]
[Time "12"]
[Variation "Classical Variation, 1...d5 2.Bb2"]
[WhiteElo "2200"]
[TimeControl "40/120:40/120:40/120"]
[Termination "adjudication"]
[PlyCount "52"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. b3 d5 2. Bb2 Bf5 3. e3 e6 4. Bd3 Bxd3 5. cxd3 Na6 6. Ne2 Qg5
7. O-O O-O-O 8. d4 Bd6 9. Ba3 Bxa3 10. Nxa3 h5 11. Nc2 h4 12. b4 h3
13. g3 Nb8 14. b5 Qf5 15. a4 a6 16. Rc1 Nf6 17. f3 axb5 18. Nb4 Nbd7
19. Nc3 Nb6 20. Nxb5 Kb8 21. Qb3 Qh5 22. a5 Nc4 23. a6 Ne8 24. axb7 Kxb7
25. Nd3 Nb6 26. Qb4 Kc8 1-0 [/pgn]

[pgn]
[Event "EPOCH-1"]
[Site "Deventer"]
[Date "2021.12.08"]
[White "Engine_X_orginal_NNUE"]
[Black "Engine_X_Benjamin_NNUE"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "2200"]
[ECO "C68"]
[Opening "Spanish"]
[Time "11"]
[Variation "Exchange, 5.O-O Bd6"]
[WhiteElo "2200"]
[TimeControl "40/120:40/120:40/120"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "95"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. O-O Bg4 6. d3 Bd6 7. Be3 Nf6
8. Nbd2 Qe7 9. Nc4 Nd7 10. a4 O-O 11. Bd2 f5 12. exf5 Bxf5 13. Ng5 Nb6
14. Na5 Rab8 15. Re1 Nd5 16. c4 Nb4 17. d4 Nc2 18. c5 h6 19. cxd6 Qxd6
20. Nf3 exd4 21. b4 b6 22. Nb3 c5 23. bxc5 bxc5 24. Na5 Nxa1 25. Qxa1 Rfe8
26. Qa2+ Kh7 27. Rxe8 Rxe8 28. Qf7 Qe6 29. Qxe6 Bxe6 30. Ne5 Bd5 31. f4 Rb8
32. Kf2 Rb1 33. g3 Rh1 34. h4 Ra1 35. Nac6 Bxc6 36. Nxc6 Rxa4 37. f5 h5
38. Ke2 Ra3 39. Be1 Kg8 40. Bd2 Rxg3 41. Bg5 Kh7 42. Ke1 Rf3 43. Bd2 Rxf5
44. Kd1 Rf1+ 45. Kc2 Rf2 46. Kd1 Kg6 47. Bg5 Kf5 48. Be7 0-1
[/pgn]

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyWed Dec 08, 2021 3:15 pm

So we are happy to see the next Benjamin NNue, I would say a bundle with Corona Virus Chess  by Chris. With a 25% discount for old and loyal customers.

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyThu Dec 09, 2021 5:01 pm

Old and loyal customers get a 500% discount!





































































Price for Benjamin NNUE euro 0,00

Calculate your discount!










Like a Star @ heaven Like a Star @ heaven Like a Star @ heaven Like a Star @ heaven Like a Star @ heaven Like a Star @ heaven

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyThu Dec 09, 2021 9:35 pm

How is the NNUE changing playing style Ed ?!
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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyFri Dec 10, 2021 9:14 pm



Wild and exciting.

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyFri Dec 10, 2021 9:24 pm

This sounds very good
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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyFri Dec 10, 2021 9:31 pm

Some games of a better net

[pgn][Event "EPOCH-850-108"]
[Site "EDDY-PC"]
[Date "2021.12.10"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Engine_X_Benjamin_NNUE"]
[Black "Engine_X_orginal_NNUE"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2200"]
[ECO "A09"]
[Opening "Reti Opening"]
[Time "21"]
[Variation "Advance Variation, 3.g3 Nc6 4.Bg2 e5"]
[WhiteElo "2200"]
[TimeControl "40/120:40/120:40/120"]
[Termination "adjudication"]
[PlyCount "124"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 d5 2. d3 d4 3. Nf3 Bg4 4. g3 e5 5. h3 Bxf3 6. Qxf3 Nc6 7. Bg2 Qd7 8.
O-O O-O-O 9. a3 {+0.87/17 3} h5 {-0.45/17 4} 10. h4 {+0.61/18 5} f6
{-0.51/17 4} 11. b4 {+0.77/18 4} a6 {-0.49/17 3} 12. Nd2 {+0.26/18 6} Kb8
{-0.46/17 3} 13. Rb1 {+0.87/17 3} Nge7 {-0.35/18 3} 14. b5 {+1.29/20 3}
axb5 {-0.20/20 3} 15. Rxb5 {+1.39/19 4} Nc8 {-0.48/19 7} 16. Nc4 {+1.31/19
3} Nd6 {-0.48/19 3} 17. Nxd6 {+0.92/20 10} Bxd6 {-0.46/21 3} 18. Bd2
{+1.20/19 3} b6 {-0.61/19 3} 19. a4 {+1.37/18 3} Na7 {+0.30/19 5} 20. Rb2
{+1.04/19 3} Qxa4 {+0.30/19 3} 21. Bh3 {+0.56/18 4} Qe8 {+0.35/19 3} 22.
Ra1 {+1.18/18 3} Kb7 {+0.24/20 4} 23. c4 {+1.66/17 4} dxc3 {+0.22/19 3} 24.
Bxc3 {+0.01/17 4} Nb5 {+0.25/17 3} 25. d4 {+1.23/17 3} Qc6 {+0.18/19 3} 26.
Qd3 {+0.48/16 3} Qxc3 {+0.46/19 3} 27. Qxb5 {+0.94/18 5} Ra8 {0.00/19 3}
28. Rab1 {+1.29/18 3} Kb8 {0.00/18 3} 29. d5 {+1.12/16 2} Rd8 {+0.37/18 4}
30. Bf5 {0.00/17 2} Bc5 {0.00/20 3} 31. Qc6 {0.00/19 5} Ra6 {+0.52/18 3}
32. Kg2 {0.00/20 2} Bd4 {+0.60/20 3} 33. Qe6 {0.00/21 2} Qc5 {0.00/19 3}
34. Re2 {0.00/19 2} Ra3 {+1.04/19 3} 35. Qf7 {0.00/19 2} Qc3 {+0.07/18 3}
36. Qe7 {0.00/19 2} Rd6 {+0.42/20 3} 37. Qf8+ {0.00/18 2} Kb7 {0.00/21 3}
38. Qc8+ {0.00/17 2} Ka7 39. Reb2 {0.00/19 2} Qc5 {0.00/18 5} 40. Rd2
{+0.75/19 1} g5 {0.00/21 4} 41. Rdd1 {0.00/17 3} Bc3 {0.00/19 3} 42. g4
{+2.32/17 3} gxh4 {-1.72/16 3} 43. gxh5 {+5.12/18 2} h3+ {-2.14/18 2} 44.
Kg1 {+6.78/17 4} Ra2 {0.00/17 2} 45. Rf1 {+4.49/18 5} Bd4 {-1.59/18 6} 46.
Kh2 {+3.37/18 5} Bxf2 {-1.54/17 4} 47. Ra1 {+3.58/18 7} Qc2 {-1.27/17 5}
48. Rxa2+ {+3.24/17 2} Qxa2 {-1.77/19 2} 49. Qxc7+ {+3.87/16 2} Ka6
{-1.57/17 2} 50. Qc8+ {+3.48/16 2} Kb5 {-1.88/18 3} 51. Bxh3 {+3.10/16 2}
Kb4 {-1.72/17 2} 52. Bg2 {+3.08/17 5} Bc5 {-2.27/18 2} 53. Qh3 {+4.35/18 5}
Qb3 {-1.54/17 2} 54. Qxb3+ {+5.31/18 2} Kxb3 {-3.86/18 2} 55. h6 {+5.81/20
2} b5 {-3.20/18 2} 56. h7 {+7.34/19 3} Rd8 {-3.87/19 2} 57. Bh3 {+6.54/18
2} Rh8 {-7.33/18 6} 58. Rc1 {+8.25/19 2} Be3 {-7.30/19 4} 59. Rc7 {+8.99/17
2} Bb6 {-8.53/17 2} 60. Rb7 {+10.40/18 4} Be3 {-12.53/19 12} 61. Rxb5+
{+10.79/17 3} Ka4 {-12.55/18 2} 62. Rb7 {+11.75/19 3} Ka5 {-13.29/21 1
Arena Adjudication} 1-0[/pgn]

Note, 42. g4

Note the score differences between the two nets.
44. Kg1 +6.78/17 vs 44... Ra2 0.00/17

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyFri Dec 10, 2021 9:56 pm

[pgn][Event "EPOCH-850-108"]
[Site "EDDY-PC"]
[Date "2021.12.10"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Engine_X_orginal_NNUE"]
[Black "Engine_X_Benjamin_NNUE"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "2200"]
[ECO "D03"]
[Opening "Torre Attack"]
[Time "21"]
[Variation "3...e6 4.e3 Nbd7"]
[WhiteElo "2200"]
[TimeControl "40/120:40/120:40/120"]
[Termination "adjudication"]
[PlyCount "130"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. d4 c6 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 d5 4. Bd3 Bg4 5. Nbd2 Nbd7 6. h3 Bh5 7. c3 e6 8.
O-O Qc7 9. Re1 {+0.29/17 3} Bd6 {-0.21/16 4} 10. e4 {+0.39/18 3} Nxe4
{-0.15/17 4} 11. Nxe4 {+0.24/18 3} dxe4 {0.00/19 3} 12. Rxe4 {+0.41/19 3}
O-O {+0.08/18 3} 13. Rh4 {+0.48/16 3} Bg6 {+0.02/19 3} 14. Bxg6 {+0.41/16
3} hxg6 {+0.08/19 3} 15. Bg5 {+0.29/17 3} a5 {+0.37/18 6} 16. a4 {+0.28/15
4} b5 {+0.51/18 4} 17. Nd2 {+0.19/15 3} Rfe8 {+0.64/17 3} 18. Ne4 {+0.08/14
3} Bf8 {+0.39/18 7} 19. Qc2 {-0.19/15 3} Qb7 {+0.46/15 4} 20. Be3 {-0.07/16
3} Be7 {+0.70/18 3} 21. Rf4 {-0.31/17 4} Reb8 {+1.03/17 4} 22. Bc1
{-0.37/17 3} e5 {+1.10/18 3} 23. Rf3 {-0.31/18 3} bxa4 {+1.05/18 3} 24.
Rxa4 {-0.26/17 4} f5 {+1.00/20 4} 25. Nd2 {-0.50/19 3} e4 {+1.08/19 3} 26.
Rg3 {-0.59/19 3} Bh4 {+1.23/19 3} 27. Re3 {-0.60/18 3} Nb6 {+2.02/19 3} 28.
Ra1 {-0.67/19 3} Nd5 {+2.49/18 4} 29. Re2 {-0.71/19 3} Nf4 {+2.53/19 6} 30.
Re3 {-0.56/18 3} Bf6 {+2.74/18 2} 31. Nc4 {-1.10/16 3} Qb5 {+2.58/19 2} 32.
Nd6 {-1.59/18 3} Qd5 {+3.44/19 2} 33. Nxe4 {-1.73/19 4} fxe4 {+3.63/19 2}
34. Rxe4 {-2.02/18 6} Ne6 {+3.92/18 2} 35. Re1 {-2.29/17 8} g5 {+4.20/19 2}
36. Ra4 {-1.97/17 2} Re8 {+4.56/18 9} 37. Qd1 {-2.81/15 2} Nf4 {+4.46/16 1}
38. Bxf4 {-2.77/15 1} gxf4 {+4.51/17 0} 39. Rxe8+ {-3.05/15 0} Rxe8
{+4.79/17 0} 40. Ra1 {-3.12/15 0} Qb5 {+4.88/14 0} 41. b3 {-3.03/18 3} Qd5
{+4.76/17 3} 42. Qg4 {-3.63/18 3} Qxb3 {+5.97/19 5} 43. Qd7 {-4.31/18 3}
Qe6 {+7.09/20 2} 44. Qxe6+ {-5.04/19 6} Rxe6 {+6.91/21 5} 45. Rxa5
{-4.63/20 2} Re1+ {+7.15/21 4} 46. Kh2 Re2 {+7.19/20 2} 47. Kg1 {-4.66/20
3} Bh4 {+7.46/20 4} 48. g3 {-5.03/21 2} fxg3 {+7.59/21 2} 49. fxg3
{-5.45/21 2} Bxg3 {+7.56/21 2} 50. Rc5 {-6.03/21 7} Rc2 {+8.08/21 2} 51.
Kf1 {-6.66/21 9} Rf2+ {+8.07/21 2} 52. Kg1 {-6.46/24 4} Rf6 {+8.40/22 6}
53. Kg2 {-6.66/19 5} Be1 {+8.44/22 2} 54. d5 {-6.85/19 2} Rf2+ {+8.66/18 2}
55. Kg1 {-7.17/19 3} cxd5 {+8.77/19 2} 56. Rxd5 {-7.63/20 5} Rf3 {+8.86/20
2} 57. c4 {-7.62/15 3} Rxh3 {+9.02/17 2} 58. Kf1 {-7.94/15 2} Bb4 {+9.26/19
2} 59. Rg5 {-8.20/15 2} Rh4 {+9.59/19 2} 60. c5 {-9.11/17 5} Rc4 {+9.69/18
2} 61. Rf5 {-8.84/16 4} Rc2 {+9.84/18 2} 62. c6 {-10.30/18 4} Be7 {+9.92/19
2} 63. Rf4 {-11.52/16 2} Rxc6 {+10.15/19 2} 64. Kg2 {-13.43/17 3} Rc3
{+10.46/19 2} 65. Kf2 {-15.95/19 3} g5 {+10.73/19 2  Arena Adjudication}
0-1[/pgn]

score +10.xx where ProDeo would score ~+5.xx
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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyFri Dec 10, 2021 10:09 pm

[pgn][Event "EPOCH-850-108"]
[Site "EDDY-PC"]
[Date "2021.12.10"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Engine_X_Benjamin_NNUE"]
[Black "Engine_X_orginal_NNUE"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2200"]
[ECO "A01"]
[Opening "Nimzowitsch-Larsen Attack"]
[Time "21"]
[Variation "Classical Variation, 1...d5 2.Bb2"]
[WhiteElo "2200"]
[TimeControl "40/120:40/120:40/120"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "62"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. b3 d5 2. Bb2 Bf5 3. e3 e6 4. Bd3 Bxd3 5. cxd3 Na6 6. Ne2 Qg5 7. O-O
O-O-O 8. d4 Bd6 9. Ba3 {+0.32/18 3} Bxa3 {+0.13/16 3} 10. Nxa3 {+0.37/18 3}
h5 {+0.10/16 3} 11. b4 {+1.60/18 4} Nxb4 {+0.38/17 3} 12. Rb1 {+2.33/19 5}
Nc6 {+0.09/18 6} 13. Qb3 {+2.05/19 8} b6 {0.00/19 3} 14. Qa4 {+3.58/17 4}
Nge7 {-0.20/18 3} 15. Rfc1 {+2.56/19 3} Kb7 {-1.29/18 4} 16. Nf4 {+3.31/19
3} Qf5 {-0.94/16 9} 17. Rb3 {+3.31/17 3} Rh6 {-0.70/17 3} 18. Nd3 {+2.45/17
5} e5 {-0.84/17 8} 19. Nc5+ {+2.75/17 3} Ka8 {-0.86/19 3} 20. Nb5 {+2.39/17
3} Rf6 {-0.67/17 3} 21. Nd3 {+4.80/17 3} e4 {-0.29/18 3} 22. Nxa7 {+3.09/17
3} Na5 {-0.22/18 5} 23. Rxc7 {+3.63/18 3} exd3 {-0.09/19 4} 24. f3
{+7.19/18 3} Qe6 {0.00/19 5} 25. Qb5 {+8.64/20 3} Kb8 {-7.93/16 4} 26. Qxa5
{+9.07/20 5} Kxc7 {-8.28/18 2} 27. Nb5+ {+9.28/20 5} Kd7 {-9.27/19 2} 28.
Qa7+ {+9.52/20 3} Ke8 {-9.60/20 4} 29. Nc7+ {+9.38/18 3} Kf8 {-10.14/22 12}
30. Nxe6+ {+9.81/19 6} Rxe6 {-10.08/21 5} 31. Rxb6 {+9.86/18 2} Rc8
{-9.86/17 1 Black resigns} 1-0[/pgn]

Nice shorty, it starts with a pawn sacrifice, 11.b4

24.f3 score +7.19, opponent 24..Qe6 0.00
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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptySun Dec 12, 2021 8:47 am

Ed, when do you expect you will be able to release the new Benjamin NN? It looks so far like a very, very interesting engine. The key point will be to preserve its style of play while at the same time improving its strength.
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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptySun Dec 12, 2021 9:33 am

matejst wrote:
Ed, when do you expect you will be able to release the new Benjamin NN? It looks so far like a very, very interesting engine. The key point will be to preserve its style of play while at the same time improving its strength.

That will be a major job. First step, I must drop ProDeo/Benjamin since it's 32 assembler with an old and outdated compiler. Second step, go back to my first PC program, the Mephisto Gideon DOS of 1993, the only engine that was 100% written in C. Because C is required for modern compilers for NNUE. Second step is to update the 1993 engine to 2021 standards. An awful job regarding the time and energy it will take.

And so it seems best to use an old GPL engine first and add Benjamin NNUE, see how that works and then decide if it makes sense to go back about 30 years in time.

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptySun Dec 12, 2021 10:30 am

I believe that Pawel would have no objections if you used Rodent as a starting point -- he is often posting on this forum, so it could be a solid solution. OTOH, there could be other solutions.

Anyway, with the shift toward diversity and the lack of engines being simply different, it would be a pity not to finish this project. I lately use more and more the new Wasp 5.00 and Marvin 5.2 (Zahak 9.0 too, because it has levels) -- they are not fast, but what they offer me while playing is a human feel I don't have when using SF derivatives or "top of the shelf" engines [usually without multiPV, levels, settings...]. I was trying lately Dark Toga because it has a lot of options, but I still do not understand how to use them efficiently. I tried Benjamin too, but it lacked consistency -- excellent in some positions, very bad in others, so I prefer Rodent with Tal personality or Wasp (Orion 0.8 is also very aggressive in attacking positions).
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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptySun Dec 12, 2021 11:09 am

Using assembler code is always a 2 sided sword.
On the one hand you get speed, but on the negative side you are bound to the hardware beeing used or the compiler beeing used.

Richard Lang used assembler code for his 68000/68020 machines and also had to start in c from the scratch and these new genius engines played different then.

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyMon Dec 13, 2021 1:12 pm

matejst wrote:
Anyway, with the shift toward diversity and the lack of engines being simply different, it would be a pity not to finish this project. I lately use more and more the new Wasp 5.00 and Marvin 5.2 (Zahak 9.0 too, because it has levels) --

Majest, if you want you can try epoch-850-108.nnue in Marvin 5.2, curious about your findings, strength and playing style. It's the latest benjamin 1.1 NNUE and it got a 51.9% score against Marvin 5.2 itself.

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyMon Dec 13, 2021 2:13 pm

Ed, I will use it for comparative analysis as soon as I come home. I won't test it in eng-eng matches though (a brief one, probably, just to get an idea), but using it like it was done 20 years ago: trying its ideas, comparing with others engines I use (the ones I wrote), assessing if I can play its choices OTB, etc. I will write about my impressions tomorrow already, and try to save some positions (pgn/epd) to comment/compare. It would be about how much it is useful for human play.
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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyMon Dec 13, 2021 2:29 pm

Before leaving... First test passed. With new engines, I always check this line


[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.12.13"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Bb4+ 4. Bd2 Qe7 5. g3 Nc6 6. Nc3
Bxc3 7. Bxc3 Ne4 8. Rc1 *

After move 5, if the engine will find 6.Nc3, and 8. Rc1. It is a subjective test, but I hate when I see 6.e3 when g3 has already been played and I like 8.Rc1 to avoid the queens' exchange.
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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyMon Dec 13, 2021 10:30 pm

I guess it is too early, but my first impressions are quite good. First, to explain what I did: I analyzed openings I learn at depth ~20, and check the lines and the moves on the board. I also compared with Wasp 5.00 and Marvin 5.20. The positions/variations were from the h3 Najdorf (early d5, simple positions), the Philidor, the Cozio/Ruy Lopez.

My lines are taken from books written before the computer revolution, and many times, the NN proposed the human lines, even when Wasp and Marvin opted for something else. The net values initiative a lot -- I already saw a lot of positional sacrifices of a pawn for initiative, and, what seemed strange at first sight, was that these sacs were not "expensive" -- I could play these lines myself without feeling that a single misstep would mean a lost game. It was also able to preserve initiative in simple, queenless positions. At the same time, this NN checked immediately for material gains, just like humans. In OTB games, it is the first thing to check.

So, after two hours of analyses: it feels human, I understand the motivation of the moves (it could perhaps be because of the shallow depth), and I would gladly play many of the lines it proposes. It also felt different in many positions, opting for different kind of positions than other engines.

Once again: these are only my first impressions, and I should continue using this NN in the following days, when I will have more to say about it. But, I can already be adamant that you should persevere with this project, Ed.

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyWed Dec 15, 2021 12:53 am

I continued my testing today, and I was remembered about the influence of the search on the behaviour of the engine. I ran a few short matches against Wasp, Marvin and Orion (5-5, 4,5-5,5 and 8,5-1,5 were the results), and I analyzed positions of the French and Slav defenses, from my repertoire as black, using also Wasp and Lc0 cpu.

My old laptop is a slow AMD quad, and in matches the depth Marvin achieves with the Benjamin net is about 15-16 plies. At these depths, the Benjamin net plays an entertaining, speculative chess, very reminiscent of human play. It wins, it loses, but it is attractive. During the analysis, on the other hand, with much more time, the evaluation becomes evidently more solid, and in general is excellent. The weak spot seems to be late middlegame positions, simple positions without dynamism (although it is just an impression from the games I watched, not the positions I analyzed). Perhaps adding an endgame net (or several) like Jonathan Kreuzer could be the way to go, but what do I know.

Finally, I can just hope you will find the way to develop (or bundle, or whatever) an engine based on this net. At least, Brendan Norman and I will enjoy it and use it daily. I also want to thank you for letting me test, and use this NN.

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyWed Dec 15, 2021 9:35 am

Majest, thank you. That sounds encouraging, much to my surprise because the net was build from only 6-ply games. Meanwhile I have created a 20Mb net and it scores even better, 57%.

I have started to play 7-ply games, who knows? Will take 3 (boring) weeks to complete.

Found an interesting engine (only 30-40 elo better than Benjamin, which is excellent) to put the NNUE stuff in.

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyWed Dec 15, 2021 11:00 am

Ed, my name is Boban (and an unpronounceable Serbian surname). I am a linguist and a chess player -- so I don't know the internals -- how the search, the NN etc. work. I live in a small town without a chess club, I travel a lot for my work (my university is 250 km away), so I have to rely on good and useful programs. At my age, now that my academic career is stable, I have a lot of free time to play. I am not as good as Brendan Norman (he is an IM, at my best, in the nineties, I played at a 2200 level in the Serbian/Yugo third league, and I am hopelessly trying to reach that level again), but since I rely a lot on good training software (Lucas chess mostly), with time a few things slowly become clear to me.

-- Tactics first; solving chess problems, combinations is the first thing to do.

-- Then, you have to know the positions you play. Here a good engine becomes crucial: you can train these opening with the Maia engines, but you have to investigate them first, to understand how to play them, what the "price" of the moves is, etc. Each time I played a position I was familiar with, and each time I could develop an initiative, I won my game, or draw against a much better player.

So, I noted that in my training engines with a fast search are useless at my level. The best is a relatively slow engine, but with an outstanding evaluation. Many of the lines which are losing in eng-eng games are rich of possibilities in human games. OTOH, a good evaluation in NN engines seems to be in direct correlation with the quality of the HCE of the initial engine (while the results in eng-eng matches are in direct correlation with the speed of the search; take Koivisto or Berserk as examples).

The Benjamin net time and time again gives me lines that are perhaps losing against an engine, but are killing it in human games. The key will be to preserve Benjamin's style of play in the further development of the NN, and multiPV is very important. These second, third best moves in many positions are sometimes crucial.

Then, I really don't know what to tell you: what's important to me is counterproductive in the world of computerchess, where a good result in the TCEC is rewarding. I see that ordinary users do not care about the strength of the engine, and that these in the middle ground, like me, are not aware of the possibility of the software and of its limitations.

Finally, like I wrote yesterday, the Benjamin net needs its own search, to investigate a bit deeper combinations and tactics in general -- although I found it positionally extremely sound. So here you are.

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyWed Dec 15, 2021 11:43 am

matejst wrote:
The key will be to preserve Benjamin's style of play in the further development of the NN...


I could be wrong, but this might well be challenging. I remember when CS-Tal was under development, Chris used to complain that a side effect of small changes to improve the standard of play was often that the program would then stop making the sacrifices that were an important part of it being so special and so much fun.

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyWed Dec 15, 2021 12:54 pm

TheSelfImprover wrote:

I could be wrong, but this might well be challenging. I remember when CS-Tal was under development, Chris used to complain that a side effect of small changes to improve the standard of play was often that the program would then stop making the sacrifices that were an important part of it being so special and so much fun.

OTOH, it could be enough to continue having these sacrificial lines at shallower depth, and with a system of levels, the engine could play aggressive, attacking lines at lower levels, and be solid and more positional at full strength.

But then, an example from the Philidor:

[pgn]
[Event "Turin ol (Men) 37th"]
[Site "Turin"]
[Date "2006.05.21"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Vachier Lagrave, Maxime"]
[Black "Cueto Chajtur, Johny"]
[WhiteElo "2576"]
[BlackElo "2318"]
[ECO "C41"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. dxe5 Nxe4 5. Qd5 Nc5 6. Bg5
Be7 7. exd6 Qxd6 8. Nc3 Qxd5 9. Nxd5 Bd6 10. Be7 Bxe7
11. Nxc7+ Kd8 12. Nxa8 Be6 13. O-O-O+ Kc8 14. Nd4 Nc6
15. Nxe6 fxe6 16. Bb5 Kb8 17. Bxc6 bxc6 18. b4 Na6 19. a3
Kxa8 20. Rhe1 Re8 21. f4 Nc7 22. c4 Kb8 23. Kc2 Kc8 24. Re5
Rf8 25. g3 Rf5 26. Rd3 g6 27. Kd2 Bf8 28. Ke2 c5 29. b5 Bg7
30. Rxf5 gxf5 31. Rd6 Bf8 32. Rc6 Kd7 33. Kf3 Bd6 34. a4
Ne8 35. Ra6 Bb8 36. Ke3 Nd6 37. Kd3 Nc8 38. a5 Bc7 39. Kc2
h5 40. Kb3 Bd8 41. Kc2 Bc7 42. Kd3 Bd8 43. Ke2 Bc7 44. Kf3
Bb8 45. Rc6 Bd6 46. Kg2 Ne7 47. Ra6 Nc8 48. Kh3 Be7 49. b6
axb6 50. axb6 Kc6 51. b7+ Kxb7 52. Rxe6 Kc7 53. Re5 Kd7
54. Rxf5 Nb6 55. Rxh5 Nxc4 56. Kg2 Na3 57. Kf3 c4 58. Ke2
Bf6 59. Rd5+ Ke6 60. Ra5 Bb2 61. f5+ Kf6 62. g4 c3 63. Rc5
c2 64. Kd2 c1=Q+ 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]

In this position, Vachier-Lagrave played 10. Be7 against a lesser known player in 2006; that's also the choice of the Benjamin NN at a depth 20+ in multiPV mode, before switching to Be3. Without multiPV, it focuses exclusively on 0-0-0. Objectively, Be7 seems to be a weaker possibility in this position -- ideas with O-O-O and Bb5+ or Be3 are perhaps better, but it gives you ideas, reveals how much a position is rich. In the main line with Be3, the Benjamin NN also finds a Knight sacrifice immediately: 10.Be3, Nbd7 11. 0-0-0, c6 11. Nf6+. It is a simple sacrifice, an exchange, any player would see it, but still...


Last edited by matejst on Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : embed pgn)
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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyWed Dec 15, 2021 12:55 pm

Question: how to embed pgn in a post?

Find it!
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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyWed Dec 15, 2021 4:29 pm

Put the pgn between the two [ ]insert pgn notation here[ ]
And write pgn in the first bracket and /pgn
In the second

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PostSubject: Re: My first NNUE   My first NNUE EmptyWed Dec 15, 2021 9:11 pm

TheSelfImprover wrote:
matejst wrote:
The key will be to preserve Benjamin's style of play in the further development of the NN...


I could be wrong, but this might well be challenging. I remember when CS-Tal was under development, Chris used to complain that a side effect of small changes to improve the standard of play was often that the program would then stop making the sacrifices that were an important part of it being so special and so much fun.

Well, I am not entirely sure but with NNUE you have little to say about playing style quite contrary to HCE when you are in control. NNUE is magic and inscrutable, you play ~10 million games at depth=6 full of blunders in a couple of weeks and it replaces your evaluation (with a huge elo jump) you have been working on for 20-30 years. And you start to wonder, what have I been missing all those years....

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