NNUE development is like heroin. The first time gives you +300 Elo and a giant dopamine hit. All subsequent development progress gives way less. Perfectly addictive brew.
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:16 pm
I am running the same gauntlet but now at 40/120, I expect some elo gain.
Subject: Re: My first NNUE Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:54 am
Ed, can you test the net only? I don't know if an engine can use your NN, but I think it would be interesting to test the Rebel NN against an old SF NN, one of Dietrich's Kappe NNs, etc. Both with a slower/and a faster, deeper search.
It would help you decide how to develop Rebel further.
I also have a few questions: will you implement Pro Deo's HCE in the engine? It would be useful in situation when the material imbalance is huge. Also, support for syzygy could be useful.
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:16 pm
matejst wrote:
Ed, can you test the net only? I don't know if an engine can use your NN, but I think it would be interesting to test the Rebel NN against an old SF NN, one of Dietrich's Kappe NNs, etc. Both with a slower/and a faster, deeper search.
Started a 200 game match against Dietrich's Kappe Toga III-3.12
I also have a few questions: will you implement Pro Deo's HCE in the engine? It would be useful in situation when the material imbalance is huge. Also, support for syzygy could be useful.
My current to-do list 1. Move to a 20Mb net. 2. Release Rebel 14. 3. ProDeo training with less pruning. 4. Endgame training. 5. Improving search with a couple of ProDeo goodies.
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:05 pm
Code:
Gambit Rating List Running : Rebel 14 [beta] Time Control : Time control : 40/120 Games : 1000
No. Name Win Draw Loss Unf. Score Games % ----------------------------------------------------------- 1 Rebel 14 +73 =59 -68 *0 102.5 200 51.2% 2 Toga III-03.12 +68 =59 -73 *0 97.5 200 48.8%
Total Games: 200 White Wins: 65 (32.5%) Black Wins: 76 (38.0%) Draws: 59 (29.5%) Unfinished: 0 (0.0%)
Estimated ratings for this elo 3132 pool
# PLAYER : RATING POINTS PLAYED (%) 1 Rebel 14 : 3136.4 102.5 200 51 2 Toga III-03.12 : 3127.6 97.5 200 49
Not bad at all considering that : 1. Dietrich started from Toga 4 which is ~100 elo stronger than Growing Fruit; 2. Toga uses a classic 20Mb net.
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matejst
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:07 pm
On the contrary, I think the result is excellent. I will do some test myself with the current net. On my computer the search of Marvin and Dark Toga seem to be similar, so several games could give some indication (especially if the difference in evaluation quality is huge).
Then, why hurry? Why not improve the search, and release Rebel 14 when you feel it is mature? Meanwhile, you can always release a few betas if you want.
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:44 am
matejst wrote:
Then, why hurry? Why not improve the search, and release Rebel 14 when you feel it is mature? Meanwhile, you can always release a few betas if you want.
I can't speak for other programmers, but if you just have taken a major hurdle (and nnue is a mountain) it's like running a huge personal record on (say) the marathon. You are not going to run the next day another 42 km. Instead you enjoy your PR, enjoy the attention and make plans for the future.
In principle the current version (the PR) is ready for release and you want to share, that's how it works for me. Enjoy and share. For the moment I am waiting for Chris to get the 20Mb nnue to work for both our engines, then release. You have reached a milestone, whatever comes next is called an update, running for a new PR.
I can't release beta versions without the source code, the GPL forbids it.
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matejst
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:16 pm
I am eagerly awaiting for the new Rebel, so it suits me if you release it asap.
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Dio
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:17 pm
Me too, I would be very happy about a Rebel 14 with NNUE. Since Toga is about 100 Elo stronger than Fruit, your previous test against Dark Toga with the very strong net of Dietrich Kappe speaks very much for the fact that your entry into the NNUE world is more than successful, congratulations!
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:02 am
First try with a 20Mb net, a net generated from SF data, Benjamin 20Mb net will do done later.
BTW, I am running the SSE2 version on this PC, the AVX2 version is considerable faster.
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matejst
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:15 pm
Did you work on the code, Ed? The results are above expected, so I wonder if you have already improved the search.
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:25 pm
matejst wrote:
Did you work on the code, Ed? The results are above expected, so I wonder if you have already improved the search.
My Benjamin 20Mb net (data) is not good enough at the moment so I am testing the nnue code with a net generated from SF data. Seems to function well. The final result:
Code:
Running : Rebel 14 [beta] [testing first 20Mb net] [generated from SF data for the moment] Time Control : Time control : 40/120 Games : 1000
Subject: Re: My first NNUE Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:34 pm
I am trying the new engine in parallel with Marvin_Benjamin. I have the impression that the evaluation is quite different. Is this a different NN than the one I have or are the difference a result of the search?
If it is a different net, and if it is compatible with the old one, would you be so kind to upload it? I would be very grateful.
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:01 pm
matejst wrote:
I am trying the new engine in parallel with Marvin_Benjamin. I have the impression that the evaluation is quite different. Is this a different NN than the one I have or are the difference a result of the search?
If it is a different net, and if it is compatible with the old one, would you be so kind to upload it? I would be very grateful.
It's a different net, based on depth=7, only slightly better.
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:38 pm
Admin wrote:
My Benjamin 20Mb net (data) is not good enough at the moment so I am testing the nnue code with a net generated from SF data.
Admin wrote:
Official Rebel 14
Hi Ed, good evening, I am a bit confused, not sure I understand correctly: you consider the Benjamin-based NN not good enough, but half an hour later you announce Rebel 14... Is it indeed using the NN based on Benjamin 1.1 games rather than the SF data? To be honnest, I would not be interested in another SF-based NN, while I am keen on getting the Benjamin-based one Anyway, thanks for keeping on sharing the nice work! Kind regards, Eric
p.s. I guess you compiled sse2 with hardware popcnt enabled, it crashes on my old 64bits CPU, despite being sse2 & sse3 compliant
Last edited by Tibono on Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : additional comment)
matejst
Posts : 612 Join date : 2020-11-26
Subject: Re: My first NNUE Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:29 pm
Thanks, Ed!
Tibono wrote:
Hi Ed, good evening, I am a bit confused, not sure I understand correctly: you consider the Benjamin-based NN not good enough, but half an hour later you announce Rebel 14... Is it indeed using the NN based on Benjamin 1.1 games rather than the SF data? To be honnest, I would not be interested in another SF-based NN, while I am keen on getting the Benjamin-based one Anyway, thanks for keeping on sharing the nice work! Kind regards, Eric
Eric,
It is a 10MB Benjamin net, like the previous one, but they were not trained at the same depth. Its optimistic evaluation is easily recognizable, and just analyze five mn with it and with SF and you'll see the difference. It's glaring.
So far, I have the impression that this NN is better in simple positions.
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matejst
Posts : 612 Join date : 2020-11-26
Subject: Re: My first NNUE Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:27 am
First takes: this NN seems a bit better than the previous one. Very similar in openings and complicated position, but better in simple positions and endings.
Then. It seems clear to me that creating a net from the evaluation of older engines at small depth gives good results. It gives both quality and distinctive style.
I would like to add a word about the reaction on Talkchess. Since the rise of this internet (a)culture, I see more and more little angry people everywhere. For some reason, they feel entitled to give their mostly negative opinions about everything. The levels of education and culture are so low nowadays that it is mind boggling.
And a last word. For years, I was searching for an engine with a good evaluation, useful for analyzing and learning chess. SF is too fast for this, because you cannot make a correlation between the static attributes of the position and its evaluation, based on tremendous depth. But most of modern engines are streamlined for TCEC and authors do not have users in mind (there are exceptions, of course). Hopefully, Ed will continue developing Rebel, which is precisely what I wanted.
[I hope that Marin Danielsson, John Stanback, Jonathan Kreuzer, Amanj Sherwani will also continue the development of their engines. It is interesting to note that older programmers are the one having users in mind.]
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:00 am
Tibono wrote:
p.s. I guess you compiled sse2 with hardware popcnt enabled, it crashes on my old 64bits CPU, despite being sse2 & sse3 compliant
I was already afraid this could happen, will look if it can be fixed.
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Subject: Re: My first NNUE Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:19 am
Boban, I don't care what some folks say at Talkchess, the vast majority likes it.
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