Subject: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:09 am
I ran the games with Let's Check in the games people are using as proof that GM Hans Niemann cheated. By citing this video and showing 9 games played with 100% scores by GM Hans Niemann.
I could only produce 3 games out of the 9 claimed with Let's Check showing 100% game correlation.
{Engine/Game Correlation: White = 93%, Black = 53%.}
Admin Admin
Posts : 2608 Join date : 2020-11-17 Location : Netherlands
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:27 am
Didn't Chessbase say, don't use let's check for this?
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:55 pm
Admin wrote:
Didn't Chessbase say, don't use let's check for this?
Yes they did and I already posted this here by Chessbase.
Let's check is garbage for any kind of cheat detection.
But this is the only click bait "evidence" they have against GM Niemann.
And people will believe it, as they know nothing about cheat detection, chess engines, or Let's Check.
So confirmation bias will rule the day for many. As they were told GM Niemann cheated OTB, and here is the proof.
I had to think hard about the correct way to show if someone was cheating with real proof. As I was asked by ICC in the 1990's if I could help them catch cheaters on ICC.
Here is how you do not show cheating, Firing up your chess engine, saying that move looks strange and is not human, and then finding a chess engine that played that move, and then counting the engine to human move correlation.
Admin Admin
Posts : 2608 Join date : 2020-11-17 Location : Netherlands
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:19 pm
Lemme see if I get this right, let's check collects the data of engines that play in their engine room, weak, strong and top engines. In the meantime since let's check is around for 8-10? years they must have a gigantic database. Still a 100% match is a huge.
1. If Niemann has a couple of 100% matches they should check other players as well.
2. I looked at the "Plycount" of the example Chris posted, the 100% matches are short games, perhaps mainly opening theory? The moves should be checked before jumping into conclusions.
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:05 pm
Admin wrote:
Lemme see if I get this right, let's check collects the data of engines that play in their engine room, weak, strong and top engines. In the meantime since let's check is around for 8-10? years they must have a gigantic database. Still a 100% match is a huge.
1. If Niemann has a couple of 100% matches they should check other players as well.
2. I looked at the "Plycount" of the example Chris posted, the 100% matches are short games, perhaps mainly opening theory? The moves should be checked before jumping into conclusions.
Really it is HUGE. There is games from many players like GM Carlsen, that I just posted that match 100%.
or that are really high.
It is proof of nothing. And the GM Carlsen game I just posted was not a short game.
So Lemme see, and get this right. GM Niemann is cheating to win money, and rating points. That is why you would cheat in chess.
The problem with this is you need to do this all the time, or it just does not work.
So in few games, that are 100% matches like other players also have shows what.......Nothing.
You can not cherry pick data, If that was the case I can show GM Carlsen is a cheater.
Here is another example. That shows just how crazy this really is for GM Niemann, and what bias people have in looking at data.
The person who posted this 100% video on Youtube at the top of this thread. Is friends with the player that said GM Niemann cheated in the game below Matthieu Cornette, and did so with not any evidence, just the move correlation.
Let's look at the Let's Check data and engine correlation scores. GM Niemann 86%, GM Cornette  83%. Â
Sure GM Niemann cheated, but not GM Cornette. with a 83% match that is accusing GM Niemann of cheating. If you watched the video both players cheated, and the proof is they both played better then GM Fischer in his amazing unbeaten streak. GM Fischer could only get engine matches in the 70's% Â
{Engine/Game Correlation: White = 86%, Black = 83%.}
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:09 am
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:58 am
mwyoung wrote:
Admin wrote:
Didn't Chessbase say, don't use let's check for this?
Yes they did and I already posted this here by Chessbase.
Let's check is garbage for any kind of cheat detection.
But this is the only click bait "evidence" they have against GM Niemann.
And people will believe it, as they know nothing about cheat detection, chess engines, or Let's Check.
So confirmation bias will rule the day for many. As they were told GM Niemann cheated OTB, and here is the proof.
I had to think hard about the correct way to show if someone was cheating with real proof. As I was asked by ICC in the 1990's if I could help them catch cheaters on ICC.
Here is how you do not show cheating, Firing up your chess engine, saying that move looks strange and is not human, and then finding a chess engine that played that move, and then counting the engine to human move correlation.
You all miss a few major points: It's not a cheating device. It is a huge chess tree in a cloud that changes itself daily.
And Niemann used it for cheating. He did not cheat with ONE engine. He used let's check. That's why there were so many 100% games.
But. This tree changes. If chess base users replay Niemann games with new engines or different analysis, the tree changes and the huge correlatios change too
The cloud tree is like a living organism. It is not statically.
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:00 am
Maybe this was app planned by him. If he would have used a certain engine alone, People could find out by deterministically replay the games. But by using a dynamic cloud tree, that changes when people replay HIS games with it, He can hide his tracks in the data history. If chess base has no backups, People can never proof him cheating. Because the "cheating device" changed itself in the process of proving him cheating.
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:16 am
Mclane wrote:
Maybe this was app planned by him. If he would have used a certain engine alone, People could find out by deterministically replay the games. But by using a dynamic cloud tree, that changes when people replay HIS games with it, He can hide his tracks in the data history. If chess base has no backups, People can never proof him cheating. Because the "cheating device" changed itself in the process of proving him cheating.
I guess if you did any research at all. To find out what is true, and what is not true. Then you would know this was not the case. It was the opposite.
When I looked at the data with Let's Check. The name that was all over Han's games was Gambit-man in Let's Check. The same anonymous person who created this fake evidence.
If you look at the video, you can still see his name in the Let's Check data. Not very smart to tell us your user-name with Chessbase, by then using it as your anonymous name as the person who created the fake data in the video.
This was a set-up.
Mclane.
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:26 am
It's unimportant. If this Spanish fide player had 24 games of Niemann with 100% in let's check That is the evidence he used exactly this Cloud tree to cheat. The fact that later the tree Changes and the 100% correlation disappears Is part of the betrayal. When Putin shot down the jumbo jet with the Dutch tourists he also said: we did not do it although there was video material of the buk rocket launcher Bering driving back into Russia with 1 rocket Less.
If you cheat you need a strategy to hide your tracks, Otherwise others will replay your games and proof you cheated. By using let's check and NOT any statically engine Niemann exactly did everything to hide his cheating. The best evidence that he cheated is that he was incapable to comment his own games and had to output sentences like: the games speak for themselves.
They do NOT speak for themselves. He cannot explain his own games because the moves came from let's check.
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:46 pm
Mclane wrote:
It's unimportant. If this Spanish fide player had 24 games of Niemann with 100% in let's check That is the evidence he used exactly this Cloud tree to cheat. The fact that later the tree Changes and the 100% correlation disappears Is part of the betrayal. When Putin shot down the jumbo jet with the Dutch tourists he also said: we did not do it although there was video material of the buk rocket launcher Bering driving back into Russia with 1 rocket Less.
If you cheat you need a strategy to hide your tracks, Otherwise others will replay your games and proof you cheated. By using let's check and NOT any statically engine Niemann exactly did everything to hide his cheating. The best evidence that he cheated is that he was incapable to comment his own games and had to output sentences like: the games speak for themselves.
They do NOT speak for themselves. He cannot explain his own games because the moves came from let's check.
Just one quick question. Since I know you do not have Let's Check, or know how it works. By this stupid and moronic post.
How do you cheat with Let's Check, before a game is entered into lets check by a user, and then analyzed by the users, before the game is even played by GM Hans Niemann? Â Mclane
Chris Whittington likes this post
Admin Admin
Posts : 2608 Join date : 2020-11-17 Location : Netherlands
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:54 pm
Can we please keep it friendly?
I had to moderate already 2 posts.
Chris Whittington likes this post
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:57 pm
Admin wrote:
Can we please keep it friendly?
I had to moderate already 2 posts.
I do not think it is unfriendly to point out Mclane is just making stuff up. And has no clue what he is posting, by his own words in the post.
Uri Blass
Posts : 207 Join date : 2020-11-28
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:19 am
I also believe that Hans cheated OTB. I agree with mclane that games do not speak for themselves. The words of Hans after the games when he gave a bad analysis is for me the best evidence against hans. Edit:Of course it is not a proof and a player does not have to explain his thinking after the game. Maybe the player does not want to explain the games and does not want to help the opponents to know his thought's process but I do not think explaining what he thought really can help the opponents in the future.
There may be also evidence based on the games but so far I did not see a convincing evidence.
You can use engines that are not the best so people who analyze your games with best engines are going to find mistakes but let's check is going to find 100% of the moves.
The main problems with the evidence of the games is 1)I did not see specific engines that you can use to reproduce 100% of the moves of hans in many games. 2)I did not see an anlaysis of many players to show that you cannot get a similiar results for other players including players who lived before the time of the engines.
Even in case that the evidence is convincing then it is not enough to ban a player from my point of view.
The reason is that even if a chess player has relatively more games that he get 100% then it is not a proof of cheating because maybe some human may learn to get a style that is more similiar to engines.
I think that you need a direct proof for banning a player for cheating and "I believe he is cheating" is not enough.
Maybe a player can learn to get 100% of the engine moves only in some types of positions and this is the reason he get 100% relatively in more games. It is known that chess players can learn opening theory and memorize engine moves. Even for the part of the game that is not theory in specific openings maybe chess players may memorize some rules to predict correctly the moves of stockfish.
It is better not to ban people only because you believe they are cheating without a direct evidence. Of course if you suspect a player you need rules that allow searching the player's body before or after the game to verify that the player does not hide something to help him to cheat.
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:30 am
Uri Blass wrote:
I also believe that Hans cheated OTB. I agree with mclane that games do not speak for themselves. The words of Hans after the games when he gave a bad analysis is for me the best evidence against hans.
There may be also evidence based on the games but so far I did not see a convincing evidence.
You can use engines that are not the best so people who analyze your games with best engines are going to find mistakes but let's check is going to find 100% of the moves.
The main problems with the evidence of the games is 1)I did not see specific engines that you can use to reproduce 100% of the moves of hans in many games. 2)I did not see an anlaysis of many players to show that you cannot get a similiar results for other players including players who lived before the time of the engines.
Even in case that the evidence is convincing then it is not enough to ban a player from my point of view.
The reason is that even if a chess player has relatively more games that he get 100% then it is not a proof of cheating because maybe some human may learn to get a style that is more similiar to engines.
I think that you need a direct proof for banning a player for cheating and "I believe he is cheating" is not enough.
Maybe a player can learn to get 100% of the engine moves only in some types of positions and this is the reason he get 100% relatively in more games. It is known that chess players can learn opening theory and memorize engine moves. Even for the part of the game that is not theory in specific openings maybe chess players may memorize some rules to predict correctly the moves of stockfish.
It is better not to ban people only because you believe they are cheating without a direct evidence. Of course if you suspect a player you need rules that allow searching the player's body before or after the game to verify that the player does not hide something to help him to cheat.
"The words of Hans after the games when he gave a bad analysis is for me the best evidence against hans."
Did you listen to GM Ben Finegold. In the video I posted. GM Ben Finegold has known Hans since he was a little kid. And was trained here in my chess club. I do not know Hans but I know Ben.
And Ben said this is typical for how Hans looks at a chess game. And how Hans talks about analysis as long as Ben has know him. Â Ben said, This was nothing strange for Hans.
It seems from GM Ben Finegold who is no fan of GM Niemann. And knows both Niemann and Carlsen. This is how Hans acts as long as he has known Hans in giving analysis.
The guy's mind is just different.
And If you know of a game that you think GM Niemann was cheating. And there would have to be many. Please post it here, and we can look at the game.
My cheating analysis for all games played in 2022 for GM Niemann looked ok using Chessbase's cheating detection program Centipawn Analysis.
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:47 am
My efforts and analysis have finally been picked up and confirmed by others. That I have been posting here, and all over the internet.
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:29 am
So it's now clear that Niemann cheated online more then the 2 times he confessed. It is said he cheated 100 games. Only a matter of time until the OTB cheating gets Explained.
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:56 am
Mclane wrote:
So it's now clear that Niemann cheated online more then the 2 times he confessed. It is said he cheated 100 games. Only a matter of time until the OTB cheating gets Explained.
When confirmation bias runs rampant. Most people will say, or do anything. This is what happens when people can not, and will not objectively evaluate all the facts and data. And do there own analysis, and separate facts from fiction.
Again if anyone knows of a OTB game or games where GM Hans Niemann cheated. Please post it here, and we can analyze the games. There should be many games for you to show if your conclusions are correct.
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:29 am
mwyoung wrote:
Mclane wrote:
So it's now clear that Niemann cheated online more then the 2 times he confessed. It is said he cheated 100 games. Only a matter of time until the OTB cheating gets Explained.
When confirmation bias runs rampant. Most people will say, or do anything. This is what happens when people can not, and will not objectively evaluate all the facts and data. And do there own analysis, and separate facts from fiction.
Again if anyone knows of a OTB game or games where GM Hans Niemann cheated. Please post it here, and we can analyze the games. There should be many games for you to show if your conclusions are correct.
There will be investigations how he did OTB cheating. I am sure it is a computer in his shoes with 2 buttons for move input and 2 vibrating engines for output. Could be a raspberry pi ...
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:35 am
Mclane wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
Mclane wrote:
So it's now clear that Niemann cheated online more then the 2 times he confessed. It is said he cheated 100 games. Only a matter of time until the OTB cheating gets Explained.
When confirmation bias runs rampant. Most people will say, or do anything. This is what happens when people can not, and will not objectively evaluate all the facts and data. And do there own analysis, and separate facts from fiction.
Again if anyone knows of a OTB game or games where GM Hans Niemann cheated. Please post it here, and we can analyze the games. There should be many games for you to show if your conclusions are correct.
There will be investigations how he did OTB cheating. I am sure it is a computer in his shoes with 2 buttons for move input and 2 vibrating engines for output. Could be a raspberry pi ...
So you have no games, no computer, no raspberry pi, or vibrating device from his shoes.
But yet you say the investigations will show how he did cheat.
"When confirmation bias runs rampant. Most people will say, or do anything." --- Mark Young.
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:52 am
Of course we have no computer he used. That's because no one asked him to put out his shoes. We have videos from his behaviour on board and I find his mimic and gestures very strange... What do you expect ?? https://youtu.be/8Lba8_wknSY
His idol dlugy also cheated before...
Admin Admin
Posts : 2608 Join date : 2020-11-17 Location : Netherlands
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:14 pm
I am more interested in the technical part of the chess.com document. Where? We have a new R/F case.
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:32 pm
Mclane wrote:
Of course we have no computer he used. That's because no one asked him to put out his shoes. We have videos from his behaviour on board and I find his mimic and gestures very strange... What do you expect ?? https://youtu.be/8Lba8_wknSY
His idol dlugy also cheated before...
That is the point. When your absents of evidence is your evidence. Then you know your bias has reached the limits. And you can no longer think objectively.
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:07 pm
The strategy of those cheaters is to admit only half of the truth that had been proven. So they can admit more cheating if needed (More evidence presented) or they admit nothing And remain 1/2 cheater.
So we know dlugy, his mentor cheated Online. We now know Niemann cheated online not in 2 cases but in 100. Only a matter of time until his OTB cheating gets caught too.
mwyoung
Posts : 880 Join date : 2020-11-25 Location : USA
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann. Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:51 pm
Mclane wrote:
The strategy of those cheaters is to admit only half of the truth that had been proven. So they can admit more cheating if needed (More evidence presented) or they admit nothing And remain 1/2 cheater.
So we know dlugy, his mentor cheated Online. We now know Niemann cheated online not in 2 cases but in 100. Only a matter of time until his OTB cheating gets caught too.
Well reports say these cheaters online are many. Including many super Grandmasters in the top 50. And GM Dlugy is a paid chess coach for $250 dollars an hour. And has coached thousands of chess players.
And we are still left with the same problem. No evidence that anyone of these people cheated OTB.
Ask yourself why you are only looking at GM Niemann. With no evidence ever produced by the accuser GM Magnus Carlsen. That GM Hans Niemann cheated OTB.
I myself do not want to be used by GM Magnus Carlsen to help destroy someone.
If you have evidence. Then you show evidence.
Sponsored content
Subject: Re: We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann.
We have major integrity issues with the proof against GM Hans Niemann.
Home 
