EvD = Erich von Däniken

Same old stuff since the 70's

Mclane wrote:

Regardless of what you think of EVD's work, you must admit that these images - created by people with zero contact with one another - are difficult to explain.

So many archaeological mysteries merely whitewashed by mainstream history or given shallow placeholder explanations.

Big fan of Graham Hancock and EVD, although both can be a bit much at times.

Usually I just watch docos on YT about Ancient Sumeria etc.

The similarities cannot be random. Its a serpent with feathered wings.

I am reminded of a limerick published in Omni magazine:

Higgedly, piggedly Erich von Däniken writes us of little green men from afar.
Next he'll be telling us, extra-terrestrials landed in Dallas to murder J.R.

Now, I never say anything is impossible. But I often find extra-terrestrial evidence weak.
A particular line of reasoning often involves faulty dilemma. For example:
"The Egyptians could not have built the pyramids so it must have been extra-terrestrials."

My opinion is that the Egyptians were every bit as smart as humans today and very possibly could have built the pyramids. And if they did not build them, extra-terrestrials are not the only alternative.
For instance, time travelling humans from 500 years from now, with a twisted sense of humor.
They found construction villages near the pyramid sites. And why would aliens come from trillions of miles away to make a monument to some pharaoh made out of stone? I am sure they would have more modern building techniques than that.

Now, it is not inconceivable that there are smart living things on other worlds. But SETI's decades long search has come up empty. Ray Kurzweil thinks that if they exist they ought to be easy to detect and gives sound argument for that. And we have Fermi's paradox.

In short, all the evidence I have seen is unconvincing to me. But, of course, I can be wrong.

There is something wrong with the time scale of science. The older the monuments were, the more precise or huge or complex they were. Later generations build less huge or complex monuments. As if knowledge got lost.

Also we see in turkey that at an age science said humans were hunters, they lived in big complex with huge stone circles (house??) and it's IMHO only possible with agriculture because so many people, how do you want to feed them? So 15.000 years ago or at the younger dryas end, people instantly began to build huge cities and agricultural stuff.

It also looks like the cultures all over the world were somehow connected. They had the same gods and the same building and iconography.
You had the same pyramids in south America as in Gizeh or China or angkor wat.

Even the Indians in north America have the snake as symbol .
The Christians have the snake who temptates Eva and Adam and throws them out of paradise.

Then in many societies you have those "handbags".

Pyramids, handbags, snakes with feathered wings.
And inside the snake a god from heaven, teaching the people how to do this and that.

How can civilizations all over the world create the same myths?
Because when younger dryas was and earth full of ice, a big catastrophe happened and a comet crashed on north americas ice shield. The survivors of this huge catastrophe spread arround the world and founded our civilization. How many people survived the comet crash, the fires, tsunamis and floods following this event?
Fact is these survivors wanted to tell us about this catastrophic event. I turkey e. G. You have huge towns under earth. 40-60.000 people could have lived in this 11 stock beneath the ground building. Protected against parts of the crash coming down from heaven.

Dann Corbit wrote:

I am reminded of a limerick published in Omni magazine:

Higgedly, piggedly Erich von Däniken writes us of little green men from afar.
Next he'll be telling us, extra-terrestrials landed in Dallas to murder J.R.

Now, I never say anything is impossible. But I often find extra-terrestrial evidence weak.
A particular line of reasoning often involves faulty dilemma.  For example:
"The Egyptians could not have built the pyramids so it must have been extra-terrestrials."

My opinion is that the Egyptians were every bit as smart as humans today and very possibly could have built the pyramids.  And if they did not build them, extra-terrestrials are not the only alternative.
For instance, time travelling humans from 500 years from now, with a twisted sense of humor.
They found construction villages near the pyramid sites. And why would aliens come from trillions of miles away to make a monument to some pharaoh made out of stone?  I am sure they would have more modern building techniques than that.

Now, it is not inconceivable that there are smart living things on other worlds.  But SETI's decades long search has come up empty. Ray Kurzweil thinks that if they exist they ought to be easy to detect and gives sound argument for that.  And we have Fermi's paradox.

In short, all the evidence I have seen is unconvincing to me.  But, of course, I can be wrong.

Man I love these topics.

Hey Dan, how are ya mate?

I think you're being a little unfair to EVD and perhaps haven't looked at his work very much or have a superficial understanding of it.

You mentioned his logical fallacy of "faulty dilemma", but also "appeal to extremes" in saying that he'll "probably be saying Aliens killed JFK next".

His hypothesis is based on the translations of Sumerian ancients texts which literally talk about "Gods" coming from the "heavens" in "flying chariots" and teaching advanced knowledge.

Obviously ancient archaology has nothing to do with JFK. Appealing to extremes is a common tactic to discredit another's views by misrepresenting/mocking them.

Anyway, I think the Fermi Paradox is dumb.

"If Aliens are out there, where are they?"

What a silly question when people have been seeing them for decades, with a massive uptick after the Hiroshima/Nakasaki bombings.

Even the U.S Navy finally admitted it.

Apparently E.T wasn't too happy with us destroying our planet with nukes and have been monitoring the situation.

Quote :

It’s been a jam-packed month for unidentified flying objects in the U.S., so let’s add one more juicy piece of UFO news to the pile: Now, the government is supposedly investigating reports of UFOs somehow deactivating nuclear warheads.

The Daily Mail claims that former U.S. Air Force personnel have testified that UFOs interfered with nukes in the 1960s. The officers reportedly recently told the government’s All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO) that they had bizarre encounters with the objects near U.S. military bases.

The Daily Mail says it’s seen an email showing that AARO staff contacted former Air Force ICBM launch officer Robert Salas to get information about the encounter with an orange flying disc that switched off 10 warheads at Malmstrom Air Force Base, Montana, in 1967. Another former officer, Dr. Robert Jacobs, supposedly told AARO that he made a film for the Air Force in 1964 that captured images of a UFO shooting a test missile out of the sky.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a43033115/pentagon-investigating-ufos-nuclear-warheads/

And the Vatican.

Quote :

VATICAN CITY – If aliens exist, they may be a different life form that does not need Christ’s redemption, the Vatican’s chief astronomer said.

Jesuit Father Jose Funes, director of the Vatican Observatory, said Christians should consider alien life as an “extraterrestrial brother” and a part of God’s creation.

Father Funes, an Argentine named to his position by Pope Benedict XVI in 2006, made the remarks in an interview published May 13 by the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano.

Father Funes said it was difficult to exclude the possibility that other intelligent life exists in the universe, and he noted that one field of astronomy is now actively seeking “biomarkers” in spectrum analysis of other stars and planets.

All of the ancient texts (including the Bible) talk someone who "came from the heavens", "performed miracles" (advanced tech), and taught people advanced knowledge.

As Thorsten has pointed out, people on every continent on earth in ancient times drew the same images, before anybody was traveling via sea far enough to make contact with one another.

They drew UFOs and they drew people they called "the Gods" from "heaven".

Also, the notion that "if they exist, they should be easy to detect" is a bit of an arrogant humanistic perspective imo.

We have 5 senses (which we might think of as "receivers") and to think that aliens *must* conform to methods of transmission that can be detected by human eye balls, ears, smell etc is crazy imo.

Remember we've only been flying for 100 years or whatever. Our understanding of physics is likely primitive without us even knowing it.

Anyway, I'm not even 100% sure about it, but the way it is just casually rejected and even mocked by otherwise smart people, smells a bit like ideological indoctrination to me.

I believe in the opposite of the Fermi Paradox:

If the universe is indeed so vast, there are most likely millions of Alien civilizations.

How stupid would it be for one grain of sand to be useful, in a vast desert of sand?

Mclane wrote:

Although unrelated, this image from an Egyptian tomb is a head-scratcher as well.

Mclane wrote:

There is something wrong with the time scale of science. The older the monuments were, the more precise or huge or complex they were. Later generations build less huge or complex monuments. As if knowledge got lost.

Also we see in turkey that at an age science said humans were hunters, they lived in big complex with huge stone circles (house??) and it's IMHO only possible with agriculture because so many people, how do you want to feed them? So 15.000 years ago or at the younger dryas end, people instantly began to build huge cities and agricultural stuff.

It also looks like the cultures all over the world were somehow connected. They had the same gods and the same building and iconography.
You had the same pyramids in south America as in Gizeh or China or angkor wat.

Even the Indians in north America have the snake as symbol .
The Christians have the snake who temptates Eva and Adam and throws them out of paradise.

Then in many societies you have those "handbags".

Pyramids, handbags, snakes with feathered wings.
And inside the snake a god from heaven, teaching the people how to do this and that.

How can civilizations all over the world create the same myths?
Because when younger dryas was and earth full of ice, a big catastrophe happened and a comet crashed on north americas ice shield. The survivors of this huge catastrophe spread arround the world and founded our civilization. How many people survived the comet crash, the fires,  tsunamis and floods following this event?
Fact is these survivors wanted to tell us about this catastrophic event. I turkey e. G. You have huge towns under earth. 40-60.000 people could have lived in this 11 stock beneath the ground building. Protected against parts of the crash coming down from heaven.

You made a great point here and pointed out one of the biggest mysteries.

It seems obvious that ancient people either had access to the same knowledge (abruptly) or met with each other despite vast geographical distances.

But how?

Such an amazingly interesting topic.

This „town“ under earth is reality.
It is fact.
It’s difficult to find out when it was made but in turkey we have also the oldest temples and stone circles in




Göbekli Tepe:
Only 1.5% of the stone circles are so far opened. The rest is under ground and it has to be digged out.
There are 3 layers and the oldest layers are 12.000 years ago.
Its not clear if the monuments had a roof or where just stone circles.
But it dates back into the age when the younger dryas catastrophe was over.
The whole temple areal was covered by the people in Göbekli Tepe.
Those monuments were completely in the ground, this preserved the temples because they were found in our century.
12000 in the ground.

So in the moment the catastrophe was over and the ice was going away the people in turkey began with agriculture and huge areas with temples and monument, they were not hunter gatherers in these days. Our history has it wrong.

The impact and the debate about it by prof. Martin sweatman, university of Edinburgh.

Mclane wrote:

Göbekli Tepe:

What a strange place!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Looks as though it was initially built around 11,000 years ago, then abandoned, then somebody went to the trouble of covering it all up!

Stonehenge in Britain is taking a long time to reveal its secrets to archaeologists, and Göbekli Tepe probably will as well.

Brendan wrote:

It seems obvious that ancient people either had access to the same knowledge (abruptly) or met with each other despite vast geographical distances.

Not necessarily - it's actually quite easy to come up with alternative explanations: in Victorian Britain (140 or so years ago), a lot of Chinese style artefacts were made - but these were copied from (or styled after) Chinese artifacts - probably without any Chinese human connection. Goods being traded and moved over large distances predates history.

There were only hills and the top of the pillars were maybe seen. The rest was in the ground.
But this is the reason we can today observe everything.
If it would not have „burried“, people would have destroyed it.

Sweatman interprets the pictures carved on the pillars.
Positive reliefs.
Animals.

He says these images are star maps. And there are also the handbags again.

For sweatman the handbags are not bags but  sun and equinox in certain zodiacs.
https://youtu.be/edf-Ui83Edw

https://youtu.be/RlAimcZFiQo

For others the „handbag“ with the animal is an image of göbleki tepe itself, so that the „circle“ as been seen from above is in fact the House or handbag symbol with a roof , as seen from a side, that was sacred to an animal and the 3 handbags are 3 houses sacred for different animals.
https://youtu.be/ZNrMucrAGjk

TheSelfImprover wrote:

Mclane wrote:

Göbekli Tepe:

What a strange place!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Looks as though it was initially built around 11,000 years ago, then abandoned, then somebody went to the trouble of covering it all up!

Stonehenge in Britain is taking a long time to reveal its secrets to archaeologists, and Göbekli Tepe probably will as well.

Here a video where he visits kurt tepesi,
there some pillars are still digged in the ground and you can see the area how it was burried for thousands of years. No wonder nobody looked out for these pillars. They look like normal stones in the ground in an area with so many other stones.

https://youtu.be/_EWugySYrlE

Further :

https://phys.org/news/2017-04-ancient-stone-pillars-clues-comet.html

We have interpreted much of the symbolism of Göbekli Tepe in terms of astronomical events. By matching low-relief carvings on some of the pillars at Göbekli Tepe to star asterisms we find compelling evidence that the famous 'Vulture Stone' is a date stamp for 10950 BC ± 250 yrs, which corresponds closely to the proposed Younger Dryas event, estimated at 10890 BC. We also find evidence that a key function of Göbekli Tepe was to observe meteor showers and record cometary encounters. Indeed, the people of Göbekli Tepe appear to have had a special interest in the Taurid meteor stream, the same meteor stream that is proposed as responsible for the Younger-Dryas event. Is Göbekli Tepe the 'smoking gun' for the Younger-Dryas cometary encounter, and hence for coherent catastrophism?

TheSelfImprover wrote:

Brendan wrote:

It seems obvious that ancient people either had access to the same knowledge (abruptly) or met with each other despite vast geographical distances.

Not necessarily - it's actually quite easy to come up with alternative explanations: in Victorian Britain (140 or so years ago), a lot of Chinese style artefacts were made - but these were copied from (or styled after) Chinese artifacts - probably without any Chinese human connection. Goods being traded and moved over large distances predates history.

So 12000 years ago "artifacts from China" were passed as far as New Zealand, Mexico, The Middle East, North America (etc) - and these "artifacts" somehow taught the people never-before-used/known architectural technology/methods, farming,writing, astrology, astronomy, horticulture (etc, etc, etc)?

Because this is what we're dealing with, and which you clearly haven't looked into.

I swear, you *start* with the position of wanting to disagree, and then wrap a crappy argument around it.

Next time, try to think/research a little in the interim.

TheSelfImprover wrote:

Mclane wrote:

Göbekli Tepe:

What a strange place!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Looks as though it was initially built around 11,000 years ago, then abandoned, then somebody went to the trouble of covering it all up!

Stonehenge in Britain is taking a long time to reveal its secrets to archaeologists, and Göbekli Tepe probably will as well.

Except that Göbekli Tepe predates Stonehenge (and the Egyptian pyramids(!)) by many thousands of years, is a much bigger site, and is several layers deep.

Did "Chinese artifacts" help them lift, shape and organize hundreds of 50-tonne stone slabs 12000 years ago?

Why did 10-40.000 people lived underground in turkey ?
The enemy were parts from the comet impact falling from sky. Only under ground the people were save.
Above the catastrophe killed everything. Huge floods. Huge forrests burning. It must have been a nightmare.

Thorsten, I think you'll love this too. Have a look.



Speaks of the floods and migration of people and mysterious people arriving "from the sea" to teach them.

Really interesting.

Admin wrote:

Same old stuff since the 70's

It's even worse than that!

* He's a convicted fraudster sentenced to 3.5 years imprisonment - link

* His main idea, extra-terrestrial paleocontact, was plagiarised from a Carl Sagan book - link

* His books a re full of logical and factual errors - link  

* he has admitted to being completely wrong about the Iron Pillar Of Delhi

* he lied about an expedition that he undertook through man-made tunnels within Cueva de los Tayos

* the the Book of Dzyan, referred to by von Däniken, is a hoax and a fabrication

* descriptions of some Nazca line photos in Chariots of the Gods? contain significant inaccuracies

* Von Däniken wrote in Chariots of the Gods? that a version of the Piri Reis map depicted some Antarctic mountains that were and still are buried in ice, and could only be mapped with modern equipment. This is simply wrong.

* Von Däniken claimed that the Sarcophagus of Palenque depicted a spaceman sitting on a rocket-powered spaceship, wearing a spacesuit. However, archaeologists see nothing special about the figure, a dead Maya monarch (K'inich Janaab' Pakal) wearing traditional Maya hairstyle and jewellery, surrounded by Maya symbols that can be observed in other Maya drawings. The right hand is not handling any rocket controls, but simply making a traditional Maya gesture that other figures in the sides of the lid also make, and is not holding anything. The rocket shape is actually two serpents joining their heads at the bottom, with the rocket "flames" being the beards of the serpents. The rocket motor under the figure is the face of a monster, symbol of the underworld

* Von Däniken put forward photographs of the Ica stones, ancient stones in Peru, with carvings of men using telescopes, detailed world maps, and advanced medical operations, all beyond the knowledge of ancient Peruvians. But the PBS television series Nova determined that the stones were modern, and located the potter who made them. This potter makes stones daily and sells them to tourists

* Kenneth Feder accused von Däniken of European ethnocentrism, while John Flenley and Paul Bahn suggested that views such as his interpretation of the Easter Island statues "ignore the real achievements of our ancestors and constitute the ultimate in racism: they belittle the abilities and ingenuity of the human species as a whole"

* A 2004 article in Skeptic Magazine states that von Däniken took many of the book's concepts from The Morning of the Magicians, that this book in turn was heavily influenced by the Cthulhu Mythos, and that the core of the ancient astronaut theory originates in H. P. Lovecraft's stories "The Call of Cthulhu" written in 1926, and At the Mountains of Madness written in 1931

All of the above from the "criticisms" section of  EvD's Wikipedia article.

Your wrote

Code:

 However, archaeologists see nothing special about the figure, a dead Maya monarch (K'inich Janaab' Pakal) wearing traditional Maya hairstyle and jewellery, surrounded by Maya symbols that can be observed in other Maya drawings. The right hand is not handling any rocket controls, but simply making a traditional Maya gesture that other figures in the sides of the lid also make, and is not holding anything. The rocket shape is actually two serpents joining their heads at the bottom, with the rocket "flames" being the beards of the serpents. The rocket motor under the figure is the face of a monster, symbol of the underworld

And that is the problem here.
A few years ago the same archaeologists saw not a serpent or a monster but a corn on the cob in the spacecraft.

Ok now a serpent. The same serpent that all other religions wrote down ?!

The Serpents that come down from sky and fall to earth , or step down the Temple of the Feathered Serpent in Teotihuacan, is what we see today when we see tourists in big planes in the sky.
And when meteroites or comets crash, they also paint a serpent into the sky,
Something falls down from the sky, like a serpent, and then the gods appear.
And sometimes the gods fly into the sky, boosting fire out of the engines and paint another serpent into the sky.

Coming back to turkey, it looks obvious that this area in turkey was kind of paradise.

And then came the serpents and adam and eve where thrown out of the paradise.

This is also clear in the sumerien docu that was linked.

There is also 2 rivers. Mesopotamia.
Like the nile in egypt.

And the richat structure in the Sahara Desert in Mauritania, Africa was also with mountains in the back (atlas mountains) that feeded the today desert with lots of water to create atlantis.

The people in our past settled at these river beds and near these water reservoirs. And huge cities were build.

TheSelfImprover wrote:

Admin wrote:

Same old stuff since the 70's

It's even worse than that!

* He's a convicted fraudster sentenced to 3.5 years imprisonment - link

* His main idea, extra-terrestrial paleocontact, was plagiarised from a Carl Sagan book - link

* His books a re full of logical and factual errors - link  

* he has admitted to being completely wrong about the Iron Pillar Of Delhi

* he lied about an expedition that he undertook through man-made tunnels within Cueva de los Tayos

* the the Book of Dzyan, referred to by von Däniken, is a hoax and a fabrication

* descriptions of some Nazca line photos in Chariots of the Gods? contain significant inaccuracies

* Von Däniken wrote in Chariots of the Gods? that a version of the Piri Reis map depicted some Antarctic mountains that were and still are buried in ice, and could only be mapped with modern equipment. This is simply wrong.

* Von Däniken claimed that the Sarcophagus of Palenque depicted a spaceman sitting on a rocket-powered spaceship, wearing a spacesuit. However, archaeologists see nothing special about the figure, a dead Maya monarch (K'inich Janaab' Pakal) wearing traditional Maya hairstyle and jewellery, surrounded by Maya symbols that can be observed in other Maya drawings. The right hand is not handling any rocket controls, but simply making a traditional Maya gesture that other figures in the sides of the lid also make, and is not holding anything. The rocket shape is actually two serpents joining their heads at the bottom, with the rocket "flames" being the beards of the serpents. The rocket motor under the figure is the face of a monster, symbol of the underworld

* Von Däniken put forward photographs of the Ica stones, ancient stones in Peru, with carvings of men using telescopes, detailed world maps, and advanced medical operations, all beyond the knowledge of ancient Peruvians. But the PBS television series Nova determined that the stones were modern, and located the potter who made them. This potter makes stones daily and sells them to tourists

* Kenneth Feder accused von Däniken of European ethnocentrism, while John Flenley and Paul Bahn suggested that views such as his interpretation of the Easter Island statues "ignore the real achievements of our ancestors and constitute the ultimate in racism: they belittle the abilities and ingenuity of the human species as a whole"

* A 2004 article in Skeptic Magazine states that von Däniken took many of the book's concepts from The Morning of the Magicians, that this book in turn was heavily influenced by the Cthulhu Mythos, and that the core of the ancient astronaut theory originates in H. P. Lovecraft's stories "The Call of Cthulhu" written in 1926, and At the Mountains of Madness written in 1931

All of the above from the "criticisms" section of  EvD's Wikipedia article.

So your method of "researching" a topic is to go to a Wikipedia "criticisms" section?

You know something?

Human civilization has always had two types of people:

Thinkers and parrots.

Thinkers push the edges of intellectual achievement forward with highly independent thought, bringing to light brilliant ideas previously not thought of.

Some ideas are proven true, some not.

But these people are immortal.

Respected by the people, feared by the status quo preserving "system".

Parrots as expected, parrot whatever is mainstream in order to sound smart, all the while doing the work of the "system" by preserving the status quo.

History despises these intellectual cowards, but doesn't punish them, for there are so many of them.


Graham Hancock hypothesized for many years about a comet impact occurring approximately 12800 years ago during the Younger Dryas period.

He theorized that this impact resulted in massive rises in sea levels and the worldwide flood that is written about in all ancient texts, including the Bible.


And parrots mocked him and laughed, writing hit pieces in all the newspapers, tv talk shows, and books on ancient history.

Parrots made smears, called him names and arrogantly smirked, probably citing "criticism" sections while writing rebuttals on obscure forums too.

And then in 2014 a comet impact was discovered from the exact same period and vindicated him.

Quote :

A 19-mile wide impact crater was discovered half a mile beneath a Greenland ice sheet, offering scientists and archeologists proof that a mile-wide meteorite impacted the planet’s northern ice cap more than 12,000 years ago.

The discovery appears to support a contentious theory proposed by researchers, including Graham Hancock and Dr. Robert Schoch, who believe such a cataclysmic impact may have wiped out a lost civilization that predated the accepted timeline of mainstream archeology.

https://www.gaia.com/article/19-mile-impact-crater-found-in-greenland-may-confirm-great-flood

Now he's being seen as a giant in the field and got a mainstream show on Netflix.

Graham is a thinker. Thorsten is a thinker, despite our disagreement on some political topics. I do my best to think deeply and independently as well. For better or worse.

You mate, you're a parrot.