EvD = Erich von Däniken

Admin wrote:

We are here to experience what it means to live outside the presence of God. I am pretty sure Adam & Eve cried a million tears when the were kicked out of paradise and landed on the evolved earth with all its horrors.

Oh... that's more than enough preaching for one day

The question is when we were thrown out of paradise and when this flood then happened.

As it looks from todays scientific knowledge there was an impact in the yonger dryas time,
Causing big floods and fires and earthquakes and all kind of catastrophes all over the world. It also destroyed a civilisation that was before on earth and that sunk and was destroyed with this impact.

The survivors were a small number if humans.

The old temples all over the world show these catastrophe, and the people build temples and thanked god after this catastrophe.

Göbleki tepe shows this. The underground cities in turkey shows how the people tried to survive the catastrophes.

The “snakes”, were parts from the impact that were catapulted/thrown in the orbit and came down again piece by piece after the crash.

Then civilisation was resetted and had to begin from sero again.

https://bigthink.com/hard-science/younger-dryas-impact/


In turkey the people build temples and told us on the stones about this event. And lated buried the whole temple area .

Only because of this burial, we were able to find it in our days.
If it would have been open it would have been destroyed over the 10.000 years it existed.

So it was completely conserved in the ground, like a letter in a bottle.

The people who build the temples were survivors of the event that happened. They witnessed the climate changes done by the comet crash and the destructions.

Admin wrote:

Bible, from all the worlds religions, Christianity in the person of Jesus Christ makes to most sense to me. In a nutshell, the story of Adam & Eve (symbolical representing the human race, Adam literally means human) choose to disobey God demanding to know (experience) good and evil. And God gave them what they wanted, they were removed from paradise (a heavenly place) away from the presence of God and landed on the evolved earth as we know it. And that's what we are doing here, we experience (and learn about) both good and evil. And to make choices. And God sent Jesus to earth to reconcile the fallen world to Him and restore what went wrong in paradise with Adam & Eve, that is if we learned and made the right choices.

Ed - thank you for sharing deeply held views about Christianity.

However, making the above "big picture" story fit the knowledge we have today is a stretch in many directions. Also, it's not necessary to turn to Christ for a bad man to become a good one: here are two alternatives:

1. An event in a man's life that is so big that it he immediately decides to turn to the good ways (and it's enduring power keeps him on the good path)

2. Gradual, but steady improvement sustained for long enough to go through multiple "tipping points" which cause big improvements (possibly uncommon because of the difficulty of maintaining the ongoing improvement over an extended period of time - but anyone who can crack this is likely to have a life of ongoing improvement, which will feel like a good life)

Mclane wrote:

...Göbleki Tepe shows this...

It is very clear that many things which are VERY difficult to explain happened in Göbleki Tepe - and they happened a long time before such things were supposed to be possible. However, as I said in the other thread, I think it's too soon to say that we have a clear picture. Even in my own lifetime, the slow decade-by-decade discoveries about Stonehenge have made big changes to how we view the place. I'm hoping that as time passes, Göbleki Tepe will reveal more about its inexplicable history: it just doesn't make sense right now.

True. But it is there, we know the age and we know what happened in the rest of the world at that time.
The people who lived there survived a major catastrophe. And obviously they wanted to make sure people remember this event.

So many momuments have been lost over the thousand of years, but this was buried into the ground and survived,

TheSelfImprover wrote:

Admin wrote:

Bible, from all the worlds religions, Christianity in the person of Jesus Christ makes to most sense to me. In a nutshell, the story of Adam & Eve (symbolical representing the human race, Adam literally means human) choose to disobey God demanding to know (experience) good and evil. And God gave them what they wanted, they were removed from paradise (a heavenly place) away from the presence of God and landed on the evolved earth as we know it. And that's what we are doing here, we experience (and learn about) both good and evil. And to make choices. And God sent Jesus to earth to reconcile the fallen world to Him and restore what went wrong in paradise with Adam & Eve, that is if we learned and made the right choices.

Ed - thank you for sharing deeply held views about Christianity.

However, making the above "big picture" story fit the knowledge we have today is a stretch in many directions. Also, it's not necessary to turn to Christ for a bad man to become a good one: here are two alternatives:

1. An event in a man's life that is so big that it he immediately decides to turn to the good ways (and it's enduring power keeps him on the good path)

2. Gradual, but steady improvement sustained for long enough to go through multiple "tipping points" which cause big improvements (possibly uncommon because of the difficulty of maintaining the ongoing improvement over an extended period of time - but anyone who can crack this is likely to have a life of ongoing improvement, which will feel like a good life)

It all started with a sin, the disobedience and rebellion of Adam and Eve in paradise. Sin is the emphasis in the Bible and is the big red line through all the 66 books have in common which is one of the aspects that makes Christianity unique. And I am pretty sure nobody will say I am without sin, I can't name one example of someone who has said I am perfect and without sin. We are the only species equipped with a conscience and at times it starts to rebel, even with criminals, rapists, murderers, every sane person very well knows he/she is imperfect and a sinner.

God Himself (as only One) is perfect and without sin and nevertheless He wants to save his fallen creation (represented by Adam and Eve), win it back, restore the lost relationship. And His solution was Jesus who lowered Himself and came down from heaven, born like us from the mothers womb and He led the perfect life without sin and became the middleman between God and mankind for the forgiveness of sins. On the cross the full weight of all sins of the whole world was laid upon Him, the sins of the past and future to - best said by the Bible itself, so I quote -

For in him [Jesus] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. - Col 1:10-20

And so the door is open again for everybody who wants, best said by one of the most quoted Bible text -

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son [Jesus], that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

The only condition.

Mclane wrote:

Admin wrote:

We are here to experience what it means to live outside the presence of God. I am pretty sure Adam & Eve cried a million tears when the were kicked out of paradise and landed on the evolved earth with all its horrors.

Oh... that's more than enough preaching for one day

The question is when we were thrown out of paradise and when this flood then happened.

About paradise, you have to read Genesis 3 first to understand that paradise was a supernatural place, no death, direct communication with God, man and animals only eating fruit and vegetables, no cruel food-chain.

About the flood, that happened on the evolved Earth. There are dozens of flood stories around the world from many cultures, even the the Eskimo's have one. So something big must have happened. They all tell the same story, a great flood and some people who are able to escape but from their own cultural perspective. For instance, american Indians who escape with a canoe. No ark, no animals.

Quote :

As it looks from todays scientific knowledge there was an impact in the yonger dryas time,
Causing big floods and fires and earthquakes and all kind of catastrophes all over the world. It also destroyed a civilisation that was before on earth and that sunk and was destroyed with this impact.

The survivors were a small number if humans.

The old temples all over the world show these catastrophe, and the people build temples and thanked god after this catastrophe.

Göbleki tepe shows this. The underground cities in turkey shows how the people tried to survive the catastrophes.

The “snakes”, were parts from the impact that were catapulted/thrown in the orbit and came down again piece by piece after the crash.

Then civilisation was resetted and had to begin from sero again.

https://bigthink.com/hard-science/younger-dryas-impact/


In turkey the people build temples and told us on the stones about this event. And lated buried the whole temple area .

Only because of this burial, we were able to find it in our days.
If it would have been open it would have been destroyed over the 10.000 years it existed.

So it was completely conserved in the ground, like a letter in a bottle.

The people who build the temples were survivors of the event that happened. They witnessed the climate changes done by the comet crash and the destructions.

I recently saw a scientific graph that showed a balanced climate since ~12.000BC, about the same period civilization started to explode. And as we know that since the industrial revolution the graph is going upwards, but that's another story.

The book of Job in the Bible is interesting, it is said one of the oldest books. And what you read is an Earth having an unstable climate, that probably is recovering from a disaster.

Ed - thank you for a thoughtful, considered response!

Just to quickly answer one particular point about humans being the only species with a conscience:

1. Conscience evolves in species that herd. One will see conscience much more in dogs that in cats, for example, because they live and hunt as a pack

2. Not all humans have a lot of natural conscience: for example, psychopaths only have a weak one

3. It can be trained out of people (or people can train it out of themselves). Many people who started with a conscience can be trained to do impressively cruel things to other people. It's not enough to just be "good" - a man must also be "strong"

A quick thought about paradise: people are not at their happiest when their situation is good. Roughly speaking, people will be happy when their circumstances are better than they were previously, and they will be sad when their circumstances are worse than they were previously.

Under this model, happiness approximately equates to this expression:

Quality of circumstances now minus quality of circumstances in the recent past

So - making progress (or the feeling that you're making progress) will make you happier than living in paradise.

Before the impact and the catastrophe almost all earth civilisations seem to have close connections with each other as similarities show.

How could they all have the same symbols and „religion“ if they were not connected ?!




And it is always a snake !!
Handbags. Way how to build huge monuments and walls.
Golden Funeral masks.

And again snakes.

Why are these cultures so fixated on snakes ?

Mclane wrote:

Before the impact and the catastrophe almost all earth civilisations seem to have close connections with each other as similarities show.

How could they all have the same symbols and „religion“ if they were not connected ?!




And it is always a snake !!
Handbags. Way how to build huge monuments and walls.
Golden Funeral masks.

And again snakes.

Why are these cultures so fixated on snakes ?

Not convinced I'm afraid:

* all the places with polygon stone walls are in earthquake zones - and polygon walls will better withstand earthquakes

* bags with a handle are an obvious invention

* many of the things we're emphatically told look similar don't actually look very similar at all

Here's the referenced wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_transoceanic_contact_theories .

However, there are multiple things that are very odd about Gobekli Tepe - I'm happy you've brought that to my attention!

The great Mark Boslough has debunked the Younger Dryas Impact Hypotheses - from link:

"[The Younger Dryas Impact Hypotheses is] plagued by self contradictions, logical fallacies, basic misunderstandings, misidentified impact evidence, abandoned claims, irreproducible results, questionable protocols, lack of disclosure, secretiveness, failed predictions, contaminated samples, pseudoscientific arguments, physically impossible mechanisms, and misrepresentations".

He disagrees. But other scientists do not disagree.
That's how science work. It's a competition of theories.

Mclane wrote:

Graham Laight: Nonsense
Ed Schröder: Bollocks.

Here's how I see this the discussion in this thread:

Thorsten Czub: An ancient history nerd (like me), an avid consumer of books and videos on the topic. A thinker who can look at the sky and wonder "Where the F did this all come from?"

Ed Schröder: A good guy. Relatively open-minded. Religious to the degree that "blasphemous" (aka independent) thought is prohibited. Wholehearted devotion to religion is perhaps good spiritually but limits free thought worse than the Overton Window in 1940s Germany.

Graham Laight: The zealous contrarian (as long as he's defending the mainstream Anglo, well-protected narratives). Will disagree with anything as long as 1. It strays from the mainstream and 2. fluffing on about it can potentially make him sound smart. Knew about neither Göbekli Tepe nor the Younger Dryas impact theory until 4 days ago, but after Googling for 5 minutes, and finding a skeptic.com article, now feels well-equipped to debate anyone on the topic competently.

What is the point of discussing? Honestly, I'd prefer to grab a beer with Thorsten and shoot ideas back and forth ourselves. We'll disagree a bit, but we're at least thinking.

Okay - I know I sound a bit rude here, but let me explain:

Ed, mate,... You simultaneously say:

Admin wrote:

I read his book in the '70s, did you?

It's bollocks.

But sales were great.

There is a lot of telling in the choice of words here.

1. You didn't say "I THINK it's bollocks". You made a declarative statement as if you had all of the facts in front of you, and the question warranted zero critical thought (back to this later).

2. You said "But sales were great" implying (why else leave the snide final comment) that somehow having a popular opinion is some money-grubbing scam to fool people.


The first point is fair (as far as "everyone is entitled to their opinion" - which really means "everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as it fits into a narrow window, which we determine" is concerned), until I also see this view:

Admin wrote:

About paradise, you have to read Genesis 3 first to understand that paradise was a supernatural place, no death, direct communication with God, man and animals only eating fruit and vegetables, no cruel food-chain.

So EVD is a "proven liar" (such a grim accusation, especially from a Christian), because he interprets Ancient Sumerian texts literally (chariots which flew from the heavens, beings descending who are capable of "miracles" etc), but not in the highly metaphorical ("heavens" doesn't mean "heavens" in the literal sense, but some never-seen place in the clouds nobody has seen. where everything is "perfect) sense of the Bible (which was translated into Aramaic from an older language).

A "supernatural paradise" nobody has seen is real while Aliens, which have been reported (and added into paintings) worldwide for centuries (even recently) are "proven lies".

Sounds like indoctrination to me mate. A smart person who refuses to see logic is by definition, indoctrinated by something else.

Regarding, "but sales were great"... Does this mean it is a money/power-grubbing scam?

Well...

Quote :

According to Guinness World Records as of 1995, the Bible is the best-selling book of all time with an estimated 5 billion copies sold and distributed.[5] Sales estimates for other printed religious texts include at least 800 million copies for the Qur'an and 190 million copies for the Book of Mormon.

The three mentioned books sold better than EVD's books.

But they were ALSO mere translations of the much older Sumerian/Akkadian/Aramaic texts.

Even the mainstream agrees about this.

My point, I guess is this.

Believe what you want, but drop this haughty attitude of calling things outside of your own strong biases, as "bollocks".

Saying "I completely disagree with this" and giving a perspective is opinion. Using absolutist language like "This is bollocks/nonsense" is merely arrogance.

We (even top historians) know basically NOTHING about the past. All we can do is analyze EVIDENCE (not dogma) and make deductions.

I for one, refuse to allow others to decide what I think.

A good alternative idea of what Gobekli Tepe is all about that makes a lot more sense to me:

1. It's a neolithic "stone hill" of which there are plenty in Turkey, and got buried by sediment from higher up the hill:




2. The "handbags" on the "vulture stone" are actually animal traps. These provided surplus food, enabling them to have spare labour to do their stone masonry:




Clever girl!

TheSelfImprover wrote:

The great Mark Boslough has debunked the Younger Dryas Impact Hypotheses - from link:

"[The Younger Dryas Impact Hypotheses is] plagued by self contradictions, logical fallacies, basic misunderstandings, misidentified impact evidence, abandoned claims, irreproducible results, questionable protocols, lack of disclosure, secretiveness, failed predictions, contaminated samples, pseudoscientific arguments, physically impossible mechanisms, and misrepresentations".

Wow. He hits Skeptic.com after a 5-minute Google search. Such an open, analytical mind this guy has.

Would have been a hit during the 1600s witch trials.

But I have to say...

Calling someone (you just discovered) "The great" anything, for merely regurgitating mainstream views with a condescending, haughty attitude is kinda revealing.

All you're doing is being a gatekeeper for powerful, status-quo using world-planners who care nothing for you.

Mainstream history is a delicate (but evolving) lie, kept precariously together by guys with your ass-kissing worldview.

You are on the cutting edge of nothing. Questioning nothing (of importance).

Only dusting the chalk erasers in a 1970s classroom, intellectually.

"Göbekli Tepe needs a lot more time to understand" is another way of saying "It's too new. Nobody has told me what to think yet" (until some "great" skeptic writes a piece about it, then you have STROOONG opinions lol).

Keep your views (which anybody can respect), but drop the pomposity, condescention, and absolutist language and I'll discuss respectfully.

Otherwise, expect to be owned in every thread.

So for you, or the girl, its an ancient mc donalds franchise and the animals on the pillars are the food you can order on the menu card.

One can say that these are 2 handbags as logo.

Yes, yes Brendan he is a cheat.

The ideas put forth in his books are rejected by virtually all scientists and academics, who categorize his work as pseudohistory, pseudoarchaeology, and pseudoscience.[1][2][3] Early in his career, he was convicted and served time for several counts of fraud or embezzlement,[4] and wrote one of his books in prison.

At the age of 19, he was given a four-month suspended sentence for theft.

In November 1968, von Däniken was arrested for fraud, after falsifying hotel records and credit references in order to take out loans[9] for $130,000 over a period of twelve years.

Two years later,[9] von Däniken was convicted for "repeated and sustained" embezzlement, fraud, and forgery, with the court ruling that the writer had been living a "playboy" lifestyle.

and on 13 February 1970 he was sentenced to three and a half years imprisonment and was also fined 3,000 francs.

While in Egypt, he was involved in a jewelry deal which resulted in a nine-month conviction for fraud and embezzlement upon his return to Switzerland.

According to von Däniken, books in his series have altogether been translated into 32 languages and have sold more than 63 million copies.[55]

What I said, sales were great, I did my homework.

Brendan wrote:

I for one, refuse to allow others to decide what I think.

Absolutely [!]

But a hint nevertheless, move to a more credible source. Ancient history is too fascinating to be spoiled by cheaters.

Admin wrote:

Yes, yes Brendan he is a cheat.

The ideas put forth in his books are rejected by virtually all scientists and academics, who categorize his work as pseudohistory, pseudoarchaeology, and pseudoscience.[1][2][3] Early in his career, he was convicted and served time for several counts of fraud or embezzlement,[4] and wrote one of his books in prison.

At the age of 19, he was given a four-month suspended sentence for theft.

In November 1968, von Däniken was arrested for fraud, after falsifying hotel records and credit references in order to take out loans[9] for $130,000 over a period of twelve years.

Two years later,[9] von Däniken was convicted for "repeated and sustained" embezzlement, fraud, and forgery, with the court ruling that the writer had been living a "playboy" lifestyle.

and on 13 February 1970 he was sentenced to three and a half years imprisonment and was also fined 3,000 francs.

While in Egypt, he was involved in a jewelry deal which resulted in a nine-month conviction for fraud and embezzlement upon his return to Switzerland.

According to von Däniken, books in his series have altogether been translated into 32 languages and have sold more than 63 million copies.[55]

What I said, sales were great, I did my homework.

Brendan wrote:

I for one, refuse to allow others to decide what I think.

Absolutely [!]

But a hint nevertheless, move to a more credible source. Ancient history is too fascinating to be spoiled by cheaters.

Hey Ed!

Thanks for the quick answer. Today is my day off work, so I have some time to chat.

But about this stuff, I don't think I can agree unless your argument is stronger.

Here's what I mean...

Please refer to the diagram below:



This triangle essentially plots the strength of an argument.

The quoted text from you merely name calls EVD (liar, thief, etc) and piles on the adhominems thickly.

There are also logical fallacies like "appealing to authority"...

Quote :

The appeal to authority fallacy, also known as an argument from authority, is a type of logical fallacy that refers to the different ways of fallaciously using the statements or opinions of authority figures in order to support a conclusion.

For instance, someone may assume that something must be true if a so-called expert believes it to be true, and no other evidence is needed.

This flawed line of reasoning is important to understand as it is commonly used in many different domains and types of discussions, both online and offline.

This one occurs when you use Wikipedia quotes like "The ideas put forth in his books are rejected by virtually all scientists and academics"

Can academics and scientists be wrong? Of course, they can! They often are.

Look at all the mud being slung back and forth RIGHT NOW by climate scientists and epidemiologists.

Look at how dogma has progressed over time. They (doctors) used to rub salt on the brain for a headache a long time ago.

But you wouldn't have questioned those scientists?

Basically, just because an opinion is popular, it doesn't mean it is true. Even if "qualified" people say so,

That's appealing to authority and not a strong argument. These guys are often wrong.

So...

Besides digging up his past and attacking his character. Or appealing to the opinions of gatekeepers from academia...

Where is your refutation of EVD's central thesis?

Just arguments about "heaven" being supernatural and the Bible being "God's word" without defining who God is?

You call the supernatural being from Sumerian texts "God" while EVD calls them "Aliens".

Seems to me this is the only difference in perspective, and I suspect you'd disagree with EVD, evem if EVD had a completely clean record.

Sounds like EVD is in no danger of being refuted here.

And remember, I'm not even convinced of this theories myself.

Brendan wrote:

This triangle essentially plots the strength of an argument.

The quoted text from you merely name calls EVD (liar, thief, etc) and piles on the adhominems thickly.

It's not name calling when it's factually correct: EVD is a convicted criminal - and very few criminals expect of themselves to be honest about things.

Your evidence is not from good sources, the parts don't fit together to make a whole, and the logic doesn't follow. Take a look at the diagram you sent us (above): some of your argument has been at the bottom level - name calling (e.g. "parrot"). When you've had a good think about this, take a look at the important ancient message here!

I don’t understand why his „criminal background“ has something to do with the theory he established?!

Do you evaluate Karl Marx, Lenin or Karl May also by the fact that they were imprisoned criminals?!

Mclane wrote:

I don’t understand why his „criminal background“ has something to do with the theory he established?!

If he was writing fiction, it wouldn't matter - but he wrote big theories. The books are information in support of these theories. If the source of this information is a man who puts a low value on honesty and accuracy then yes - it does matter.

Quote :

Do you evaluate Karl Marx, Lenin or Karl May also by the fact that they were imprisoned criminals?!

I evaluate Karl Marx as low value anyway. He just wrote what his rich benefactor wanted to read. In his case, his imprisonment is a footnote - barely worthy of a mention.


Karl May: he was a fiction writer - and he would never have become one if it hadn't been for his imprisonment.


Lenin: phenomenally important. A super simple rule: don't ever vote for, or otherwise support, a criminal. Had the Germans of the 1930s followed that simple rule, 50 million lost lives and the holocaust would have been avoided.

Hey Brendan

I wonder if you are serious or just kidding me, no problem either way.

1. The man is a criminal, has been in jail several times.

2. In the thread I gave a link to one of his lies. The man is anti Bible, fiction for him. And yet what he has labelled as fiction he uses as evidence for aliens. How hypocritical do you want to have it?

3. There were good points of course, Easter Island, the Nazca Lines are still riddles.

Code:

 Ende 1968 wurde von Däniken festgenommen, angeklagt und am 13. Februar 1970 wegen Betrugs und Urkundenfälschung zu dreieinhalb Jahren Zuchthaus verurteilt, da er als Hotelier 8000 Franken Kurtaxe nicht bezahlt hatte. Er hatte zuvor bereits vier Vorstrafen. Über den langwierigen Prozess gegen den Bestsellerautor wurde auch in den Medien außerhalb der Schweiz berichtet; das Gerichtsverfahren, insbesondere die Vorgehensweise des psychiatrischen Gutachters Erich Weber, wurde dabei Gegenstand von Kritik.[12][13] Von Däniken konnte nach 18 Monaten unter Anrechnung der Untersuchungshaft und wegen guter Führung das Gefängnis verlassen.[14] 1982 soll laut eines Medienberichts von 2005 das Kantonsgericht Graubünden das Urteil aufgehoben haben.[15]

This is why you call him prisoner ? This is his crime ? Not paying 8000 Franken ??
1. he was in prison and „paid“ for his crime not to pay the 8000 Franken.
This says after he was in prison he is a free person because he was imprisoned for this and after it he is now a free person. No reason to discriminate him as criminal. He did not physical attack other people.
He did not kill anybody or rape people. It was about money.
„Kurtaxe“. Not paying a fee that is mainly about tourism.