Subject: Re: summer tournament Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:34 pm
Ed fights off the Russian invasion!
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: summer tournament Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:47 pm
TheSelfImprover wrote:
Ed fights off the Russian invasion!
That will not be that easy. The russian chess computer plays positionally not that bad.
Pity that we know so few about the russian dedicated chess computers and software developments.
On the other hand, we have to thank Ed Schröder a lot that in a time/age of kittingers novag constellation and rathsmanns MM2 and B+P module, that means where the A strategy was dominating, he came with his selective programs that really played a good game of chess. That was like a paradigm change.
People thought after Mephisto III and IIIS was besten by Novag and Rathsmann that the days are gone where intelligent programs had a chance.
Dont forget that Broughtons MKV and MK VI was selective too and was capable e.g. to win in travemünde 1981 against Fidelity.
So in that days Nitsche and Henne and Broughton dominated. Because they had clever engines.
Then came Kittingers Constellation and Super Constellation and Rathsmann with B+P and MMII.
And for the selective engines it was game over.
But ed gave the intelligent engines the pride back. I tested mm4 and MM5 for computer schach and spiele and ed was my new hero.
I was always fascinated by the intelligent engines.
I remember the friendship with Thomas Nitsche. Mephisto III with its 1-3 NPS was a paradigm change and i was highly impressed.
Dieter steinwender and friedel were against Thomas. They said: this has no future.
I remember when in cologne thomas held a speech about the future of AI engines. The people laughed about him. It was the time when Brute Force was the trigger word.
People knew HG had changed the horses from Nitsche/Henne to Richard Lang.
But cologne was a weak championship for richard while beeing a good championship for Ed.
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Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: summer tournament Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:56 pm
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: summer tournament Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:12 pm
another highlight was game of Chris Whittingtons ChessClock89 on the ZX Spectrum oc by 300% (it runs on a z80 CPU) versus 6502 Conchess Plymate Victoria by Ulf Rathsmann running on 6.144 mhz.
Rathsmanns engines are known to be brute force.
So it was pure power of brute force + extensions versus clever selective algorithms.
In move 77 i think ClockChess saw a repetition in moves and said instead of an evaluation in numbers suddenly DRAW. I guess this was not really correct so i continued play. maybe this was a draw offer by the machine ? I have no idea. Maybe the programmer remembers ?
Last edited by Mclane on Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
TheSelfImprover
Posts : 3112 Join date : 2020-11-18
Subject: Re: summer tournament Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:12 pm
Mclane wrote:
ed did it.
He trounced the Russians again. Western democracy is safe in Ed's hands!
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Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: summer tournament Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:07 pm
and the next game of the conchess plymate victoria.
Beginn des Turniers: 2021.08.18, 14:37:29 Letzte Aktualisierung: 2021.08.18, 14:38:09 Ort/ Land: ORION8, Deutschland Spielstufe: Turnier 40/120 20/60 Hardware: Dual Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6300 @ 1.86GHz mit 1.016 MB Speicher Betriebssystem: Microsoft Windows XP 64 Bit Professional Service Pack 2 (Build 3790) PGN-Datei:Schachcompus.pgn Tabelle erstellt mit:Arena 1.99beta4
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: summer tournament Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:46 pm
The next game is between number 2 in the tournament, Kittingers Novag Super Constellation vs. Conchess Plymate Victoria.
TheSelfImprover
Posts : 3112 Join date : 2020-11-18
Subject: Re: summer tournament Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:53 am
Mclane wrote:
another highlight was game of Chris Whittingtons ChessClock89 on the ZX Spectrum oc by 300% (it runs on a z80 CPU) versus 6502 Conchess Plymate Victoria by Ulf Rathsmann running on 6.144 mhz.
Rathsmanns engines are known to be brute force.
So it was pure power of brute force + extensions versus clever selective algorithms.
In move 77 i think ClockChess saw a repetition in moves and said instead of an evaluation in numbers suddenly DRAW. I guess this was not really correct so i continued play. maybe this was a draw offer by the machine ? I have no idea. Maybe the programmer remembers ?
I am interested to play through this "brains v brute force" battle. I will do when I have a bit more time.
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: summer tournament Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:28 pm
in another game the SciSys Superstar 36K with Julio Kaplan engine won against the russian Elektronika IM05.
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: summer tournament Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:04 pm
In the game between the Conchess Plymate Victoria 6.144 mhz and the TASC Final Chess Card 5 mhz it came to an interesting turn arround. The Final Chess Card had a passed pawn that was running and i thought that would be the end for the Conchess. But the plymate moved the knight from the king to the queenside and stopped the passed pawn. And then the Conchess turned the game.
Subject: Re: summer tournament Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:51 pm
Mclane wrote:
In the game between the Conchess Plymate Victoria 6.144 mhz and the TASC Final Chess Card 5 mhz it came to an interesting turn arround. The Final Chess Card had a passed pawn that was running and i thought that would be the end for the Conchess. But the plymate moved the knight from the king to the queenside and stopped the passed pawn. And then the Conchess turned the game.
Beginn des Turniers: 2021.08.18, 14:37:29 Letzte Aktualisierung: 2021.08.18, 14:38:09 Ort/ Land: ORION8, Deutschland Spielstufe: Turnier 40/120 20/60 Hardware: Dual Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6300 @ 1.86GHz mit 1.016 MB Speicher Betriebssystem: Microsoft Windows XP 64 Bit Professional Service Pack 2 (Build 3790) PGN-Datei:Schachcompus.pgn Tabelle erstellt mit:Arena 1.99beta4
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TheSelfImprover
Posts : 3112 Join date : 2020-11-18
Subject: Re: summer tournament Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:03 am
Mclane wrote:
another highlight was game of Chris Whittingtons ChessClock89 on the ZX Spectrum oc by 300% (it runs on a z80 CPU) versus 6502 Conchess Plymate Victoria by Ulf Rathsmann running on 6.144 mhz.
Rathsmanns engines are known to be brute force.
So it was pure power of brute force + extensions versus clever selective algorithms.
In move 77 i think ClockChess saw a repetition in moves and said instead of an evaluation in numbers suddenly DRAW. I guess this was not really correct so i continued play. maybe this was a draw offer by the machine ? I have no idea. Maybe the programmer remembers ?
I was a bit disappointed with some of CC's moves - e.g. 11. g4
* CC could only castle king side * the pawn is only protected by the advanced knight * Conchess' queen has access to CC's king * there's no realistic chance of trapping Conchess' bishop
It's only one game, but it gives the impression that knowledge was never going to dominate brute force in the era of small programs running on 8 bit CPUs. Easy to say with the gift of hindsight, and with what we now know about NN evaluation, but there was just no way to get enough knowledge into a small program and process it quickly enough on an 8 bit CPU (it might have been possible by finding "deep" (complex) patterns in chess that lead to accurate evaluations, but nobody was doing that in the 8 bit era (and still aren't today)).
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: summer tournament Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:28 am
I would not say so. With chris we can say that he tried from the beginning and did also communicate (help files of spectrum engines says so). Ed Schroeder did and did not communicate much about it. Thomas Nitsche and Elmar Henne did it and communicated it. David Broughton did it, and maybe did not talked enough about it.
Levy continued these ideas in the CXG Sphinx with Mark Taylor after Broughton left the team doing job in TV company.
Jeff Rollason was so kind to explain David Broughtons ideas. Interest search
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TheSelfImprover
Posts : 3112 Join date : 2020-11-18
Subject: Re: summer tournament Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:53 am
The game of evaluating chess positions correctly in the 8 bit era had three rules, and they still apply today:
1. if you rely on knowledge, the brute force systems are going to find situations in which the knowledge doesn't work
2. if you rely on brute force, the knowledge systems are going to find situations in which you cannot search deeply enough
3. if you try to use both, you'll just increase the gaps in both knowledge and search
The remedy is as follows:
a. look at the evidence that deep (complex) patterns exist in chess (the evidence is compelling)
b. have faith that these deep patterns exist, and will enable you to make accurate evaluations quickly
c. hence make the investment in finding ways to discover these deep patterns
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Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: summer tournament Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:36 pm
That is why ed Schroeders 8 bit modules were so strong. They were more knowledgeable then Rathsmann, Kittinger or even Spracklen. But tactically not weak.
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Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: summer tournament Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:07 pm
a game between Tiger Grenadier with Chrilly Donningers austrian engine ended won against the Conchess Plymate Victoria with swedish engine by Ulf Rathsmann.
Playing "catch up" here! By move 30, I thought that the Russian bear was in a better position, but ClockChess fought back cleverly to snatch victory. Good game!
Mclane
Posts : 3022 Join date : 2020-11-17 Age : 57 Location : United States of Europe, Germany, Ruhr area
Subject: Re: summer tournament Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:27 pm
In the 10th round of the tournament Conchess Plymate Victoria had to fight against Mephisto Mondial II by Frans Morsch.
Beginn des Turniers: 2021.08.18, 14:37:29 Letzte Aktualisierung: 2021.08.18, 14:38:09 Ort/ Land: ORION8, Deutschland Spielstufe: Turnier 40/120 20/60 Hardware: Dual Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6300 @ 1.86GHz mit 1.016 MB Speicher Betriebssystem: Microsoft Windows XP 64 Bit Professional Service Pack 2 (Build 3790) PGN-Datei:Schachcompus.pgn Tabelle erstellt mit:Arena 1.99beta4
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TheSelfImprover
Posts : 3112 Join date : 2020-11-18
Subject: Re: summer tournament Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:20 pm
Mclane wrote:
in the next game between Superstar36K and Mephisto MM2 HG240 Superstar could clearly make the win.
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